I hate to even get dragged into this, but I will not let a good thing get screwed up without getting a thorough understanding of what happened.

Dan'l wrote:
> ..., this is the first
> post to the main list, so until now just the few people who were
> discussing it knew about it, which is probably how it should have
> remained until either the boredom went out of it or until it made
> some kind of sense to try to involve everyone.

How can I get access to the discussion that's been going on? I'd like to understand where you're coming from Dan'l.

> Many people on the
> main list only care that their clues show up and that there is a
> way to find letterboxes through information on the site.

I disagree. I do care about those things, but at least for there's a whole lot more going on here. Words won't do it justice, but let me just say that this thread is not in line with the experience I'm accustomed to on L-USA.

> But I can sum this up for those of you on the main list who care to
> know. I do most of the work on the web site and I do not have as
> much time to do it as I would like. So (being a proponent of the
> idea that it would be nice to have all the clues linked together
> on the map) I had asked Randy to do some things with his clues
> that would help to enable that and at the same time would not
> consume an exorbitant amount of my time. I CAN do it I think, its
> just that Randy feels that it may compromise his clues, his security
> and his creative input.
>
> So, I made a decision to just continue doing it the way I had it
> set up in the beginning (when the site opened in April of 1998).
> It makes it easier for me to do and it has the added benefit of
> allowing features to be added later on that will allow you to
> more freely access and search the clues. That's the gist of it.
> Randy can put his clues on the site like everyone else. He can
> have the password and whatever he needs to do it. Or, he can
> ask me to do it for him and I will. Just give the word.
> But I don't think he will. He does not like the way the
> site is set up and he has stated that. He wants his clues either
> linked to his server (at his own personal site) or they will not
> be linked at all. That's the gist of it.
>
> In this one case I cannot do what Randy is asking because I just don't have
> the time to do it.

This is where I get lost. I think I understand where Randy is coming from, but I don't think I understand enough of what you do Dan'l to appreciate your point of view. Is what Randy is asking technologically incompatible with how your trying to set up the site? Does it create more work for you? What is it about what Randy's asking that makes it not fit your desires? If I read you correctly, it is only a function of how much time you're able to give. If time is the issue, can't we as a group find a way to address that?

HELP!!!!

JDW
West Chester, PA

Hoping to get back to the spirit of open letterboxing on the web. AND, benefitting from Dan'l superb work hosting/coordinating the site, as well as from Randy's imagination and hard work, and everybody's contribution in their own way 9including those who may never be heard from)!

I'll get off my soapbox now.

I AM saddened :(


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JDW wrote:

> Hoping to get back to the spirit of open letterboxing on the web.

Fortunately, there are solutions, after what I have read today. So,
at the risk of breaking my word to stay out of the thread, I will offer
two of them.

Dan wrote:

> In this one case I cannot do what Randy is asking because I just
> don't have the time to do it.

Fortunately, maintaining the status quo will take no more of Dan's,
or anyone else's time. Just leave the links alone. As for new clues,
it takes about 15 minutes to set up a link from the map (I did it myself
for my Luzerne County clue). Dan has offered his password to me, if he
gives it to me, I will handle all of the webmastering of linking the maps
to my clues, just as it is done now. Nothing will change. West Virginia
can be added in about 15 minutes, and I am willing to do it. I do not
understand why it is more effort to link to an off-site file than to
a local one, but since I have offered to handle it for Dan, it doesn't
matter. That is solution #1, leave things as is, and I will webmaster
links to my clues.

Secondly, an index of my clues is at http://www.mapsurfer.com/boxes/index.html.
Dan is welcome to put that link on his site anywhere he wishes, thus
visitors to the site can access all of my clues via that link. It should
not take more than about 5 minutes to code the html to do this, if he wishes
to. That is solution #2.

As for physically moving the clues to Dan's server, I stand by my reasons
of last night, because I believe they are technically valid, and in the
spirit of the art of letterboxing, are not personal in any way, and I have
not seen the most important of them (the puzzle) invalidated in any way.
I believe either of the above solutions will allow things to continue as
they have, and I encourage the group to consider them.

> Randy can put his clues on the site like everyone else.

I am very weary of reading this. Last time I checked, Mitch has chosen to
do as I have with his waterfall series, and Julie has chosen to not host
her clues on Dan's server. I believe there is room for all of us at the
web site to follow our creative and technical visions, and see no reason,
technical or otherwise, why this would not be possible.

--
Randy "the mapsurfer"
Orienteer * Letterboxer * Globetrotter
http://www.letterboxing.org/faq.html

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Graham, I love your eloquent words (below) but I don't think you
undertsand what is going on with the linking issue. Also, this
is the first
post to the main list, so until now just the few people who were
discussing it knew about it, which is probably how it should have
remained until either the boredom went out of it or until it made
some kind of sense to try to involve everyone. Many people on the
main list only care that their clues show up and that there is a
way to find letterboxes through information on the site.

But I can sum this up for those of you on the main list who care to
know. I do most of the work on the web site and I do not have as
much time to do it as I would like. So (being a proponent of the
idea that it would be nice to have all the clues linked together
on the map) I had asked Randy to do some things with his clues
that would help to enable that and at the same time would not
consume an exorbitant amount of my time. I CAN do it I think, its
just that Randy feels that it may compromise his clues, his security
and his creative input.

So, I made a decision to just continue doing it the way I had it
set up in the beginning (when the site opened in April of 1998).
It makes it easier for me to do and it has the added benefit of
allowing features to be added later on that will allow you to
more freely access and search the clues. That's the gist of it.
Randy can put his clues on the site like everyone else. He can
have the password and whatever he needs to do it. Or, he can
ask me to do it for him and I will. Just give the word.
But I don't think he will. He does not like the way the
site is set up and he has stated that. He wants his clues either
linked to his server (at his own personal site) or they will not
be linked at all. That's the gist of it.

Look, I enjoy doing this service for all of you. I don't complain
about it. I'll continue to help you to publish your information,
and link it to the maps. And I'll continue the process of group
input for whatever under the sun you may think of to give input
on. I enjoy it when you have ideas and want to see them come to
life at this site. I think its one of the coolest things and I
think it helps to define who we are as a group.

And Randy, you are free to do whatever you want to do. I'm sorry
you feel that the way I have the site set up compromises your
security and your creative input. That was never my intention
I can assure you of that.

And Graham, I know you mean well, but you are not correct to suggest
that I am doing something to inhibit openess or to stifle Randy
or anyone for that matter. I have very little organization, in fact.
You members ARE IT for the most part. I mainly do what you ask. In
this
one case I cannot do what Randy is asking because I just don't have
the time to do it. But I will do what ever is feasilble, given my
technical abilities (limited as they are) to accomodate him if he
ever decides to put his clues on the Letterboxing USA site in the
future. This offer holds true for all of you. I'm more than happy
to try to help in any way I can.

Sincerely,
Dan Servatius (Dan'l)
St, Paul, MN
mailto:elf@pclink.com

ps. All of you who have clues up on the site have them located in
one place. that makes it much easier for me and I appreciate it
a great deal. But you are all free to take them down or move them
or whatever. I have never stood in the way of that. I am not a
controller or a monoplolist. In fact, several of you have my
personal password to the site. Randy has told me this is fool
hardy. I tell you it is not. It is trust. It is interest in
having fun, in sharing with others and in not getting too caught
up in all the technical stuff and legal stuff. This way we all
own what's happening and we share in it together. That's an
important feature to have for a group effort. I hope you will
support this idea as I think it is the one thing that will hold
us together as a group and I it will optimize our fun later on.

Graham Howard wrote:
>
> Dear Danl
>
> May I join in Letterbox-vision ?
>
> I thought I was also in letterbox technology but no messages here either...
>
> I must say that I've been lurking for a long time because, well, as you
> and I said a long time ago, Dartmoor Folk have different visions..but well
> that may be true..but the core of the hobby is the blue and the green and
> the search....and the connection with one another..via tiny boxes in a
> huge planet....that's my view...
>
> The UK hobby grew out of the deepest love of a special place (Dartmoor)
> and the US hobby is growing from the love and creativity of the arts and
> craft movements .....which is also very cool...I love it too...
>
> But over all... this is the community of 'Boxing...great folk all
> creative, all with sensitivity and imagination...a very explosive
> chemistry at the best of time...Freedom is very hard to keep in strict
> containers...so I guess I'm totally amazed to see Randy saying Danl wont
> let him be free...
>
> I was not comfotable when there were wars about differing views with Doc
> Mings..the wars hurt the hobby...I know which style I enjoy best but also
> respect all the ways that freedom must be allowed to blossom...
>
> It seems such a small thing ..yet maybe that's the way big things
> start...I hate these wars on the lists...why not link to Randy..what is
> the real issue here ..am I, as Brit ,missing something here ?
>
> I like to feel myself an old Amerophile ...I've lived, been educated and
> worked in the US most of my working life..and not all of that was as an
> adult ...I've been working in the US over the last three weeks and
> am off to Africa today then back to UK then another month in US
> (Florida/DC/NY/SanFrancisco /Palo Alto..etc) so am also very busy but am
> dedicated to this old crazy hobby.....Its about great people with great
> spirits like you Danl and Mitch and The Vermont Viking and MixtMedia and
> StamperHog and Horsebeads and well, and well a whole heap of just creative
> and explosive minds....fabulous....no offence intended by not listing
> everyone !
>
> It's bound to be an explosive mix....It's bound to have folk who want to
> run their own race...I know you are an organising mind..but do let your
> children run free Danl.....They will love you better for that freedom....
>
> Hope my 2cents after such a long break doesn't annoy....I do enjoy reading
> this site on the road....and love its ideas and all the work going
> on....So do keep up the good work...and Lets all get Letterboxing...
>
> Graham Howard
> The Moorland Wizard
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> [click here]
> Click Here!
>
> eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/letterbox-usa
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Randy Hall wrote:
>
> I believe there is room for all of us at the
> web site to follow our creative and technical visions, and see no reason,
> technical or otherwise, why this would not be possible.

I have not read anything that would lead me to dispute this idea. Dan,
you stated publicly that you hold no animosity towards Randy & that
there were no hidden agendas involved in your decision.

I believe that the L-USA continues to be the best source for finding
letterbox clues on the internet. I believe it is in the best interest
of the group to continue to link to Randy and Mitch's clues.

Unless I read some damn compelling argument in favor of another, I
support Randy's option #1.

If this list is a true democracy, then let's put it to the test...

My vote is for continuing to provide links to letterbox clues housed
elsewhere.

--
Thom Cheney
tcgrafx... among other things

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I second Thom's vote.

>From: Thom Cheney
>Reply-To: letterbox-usa@egroups.com
>To: letterbox-usa@egroups.com
>Subject: [L-USA] Re: Vision
>Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 11:13:54 -0700
>
>Randy Hall wrote:
> >
> > I believe there is room for all of us at the
> > web site to follow our creative and technical visions, and see no
>reason,
> > technical or otherwise, why this would not be possible.
>
>I have not read anything that would lead me to dispute this idea. Dan,
>you stated publicly that you hold no animosity towards Randy & that
>there were no hidden agendas involved in your decision.
>
>I believe that the L-USA continues to be the best source for finding
>letterbox clues on the internet. I believe it is in the best interest
>of the group to continue to link to Randy and Mitch's clues.
>
>Unless I read some damn compelling argument in favor of another, I
>support Randy's option #1.
>
>If this list is a true democracy, then let's put it to the test...
>
>My vote is for continuing to provide links to letterbox clues housed
>elsewhere.
>
>--
>Thom Cheney
>tcgrafx... among other things
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
>


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> Please, everyone, if these are your goals as well, words of
> encouragement go farther than words of criticism.
>
> Erik Davis
>
Hello from way down south in Texas
More truth was never spoken. Thanks! Now things like this is what caught my
interest in this sport to begin with, am real happy to feel the good will
trying to be had by all again here.
Thanks so much from this novice
Sherri

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Randy Hall wrote:

> I do not understand why it is more effort to link to an off-site file than to
> a local one, but since I have offered to handle it for Dan, it doesn't
> matter. That is solution #1, leave things as is, and I will webmaster
> links to my clues.
>
> Secondly, an index of my clues is at http://www.mapsurfer.com/boxes/index.html.
> Dan is welcome to put that link on his site anywhere he wishes, thus
> visitors to the site can access all of my clues via that link. It should
> not take more than about 5 minutes to code the html to do this, if he wishes
> to. That is solution #2.
>

Randy, Dan, et al:
I tend to see some sense in Randy"s #1 & #2 above. So, what if .....
a) those who find it easier/acceptable, can continue to send Dan'l clues
to post on his web site, with no change in the status quo, and
b) Folks like Randy who have reasons to keep their clues on their own
server, can. Sounds like Randy, using Dan's password, can acomplish that
at no effort on Dan's part, and still be linked from Dan's main page. OK
so far?
c) Someone else, who would like to host their own clues locally for
what ever reason (puzzles, graphic variety, whatever), who might need
some help creating links from Dan's page, could could get help doing so
from either Dan'l, Randy, Mitch,etc, if any one was so inclined, had the
password, etc.
c) I do think that someone's clue on Dan's page (or any other) should
be safe from unauthorized edit, whether by accident or on purpose. Randy
has made clearly-expressed arguements for this, and I agree with them.
...
I realize that this is probably too little too late, given several
people throwing up their hands in frustration and leaving the list. I
feel that is really sad, as I have said before. However, if the above
suggestions work technically, wouldn't everyone's (technical) agenda be
met? And, folks like Bonnie and Julie who have said they wish to leave,
could also remain linked?

Unfortunately, even if the technical issues are worked out, the bad
taste of acrimony will probably linger for a long time. It may be that
something better will evolve out of this. My hope is that, somehow, the
USA map will still show where there are letterboxes, that this will be
reached always from Letterboxing.org (for ease in telling people where
to find it), and that a spirited talk list remains a forum for info
exchange, encouragement, and good humor.

Please, everyone, if these are your goals as well, words of
encouragement go farther than words of criticism.

Erik Davis



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Thom Cheney wrote three days ago:

> I have not read anything that would lead me to dispute this idea. Dan,
> you stated publicly that you hold no animosity towards Randy & that
> there were no hidden agendas involved in your decision.

> Unless I read some damn compelling argument in favor of another, I
> support Randy's option #1.
>
> If this list is a true democracy, then let's put it to the test...

As far as I could tell, everyone who expressed an opinion expressed one
similar to Thom's, and I have not seen a compelling argument in favor
of another. Just thought this fact should be noted in the archive.

--
Randy "the mapsurfer"
Orienteer * Letterboxer * Globetrotter
http://www.letterboxing.org/faq.html

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In a message dated 5/20/99 6:10:15 PM Central Daylight Time,
randy@mapsurfer.com writes:

>
> As far as I could tell, everyone who expressed an opinion expressed one
> similar to Thom's, and I have not seen a compelling argument in favor
> of another. Just thought this fact should be noted in the archive.
>
> --
> Randy "the mapsurfer"
> Orienteer * Letterboxer * Globetrotter
> http://www.letterboxing.org/faq.html
>
>
Opps I guess my opinion did not match what you wanted so you chose to over
look it. Must be because I am a shy new comer that has yet to get to far up
on my soap box and shouted to have my ideas heard.

My point is two very thoughtful people brought this sport to the forefront
and should have some respect shown them in particular DAN

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In a message dated 5/20/99 7:27:34 PM Central Daylight Time,
Sherrijo99@aol.com writes:

> My point is two very thoughtful people brought this sport to the forefront
> and should have some respect shown them in particular DAN

We were invited to join this particular group and this site because
of a common vision for US letterboxing. We have been encouraged
to express our opinions and desires for the site, and in this way, to
guide and shape its ultimate expression.
It is not disrespectful or ungrateful to have a differing opinion.
I also believe it is in US letterboxing's best interest to have as
many clues as possible on one site, regardless of whether the
clues are on the site itself, or links.

Deborah

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In a message dated 5/21/99 1:20:24 AM Central Daylight Time,
MixtMedia@aol.com writes:

> bj: [L-USA] Re: Vision
> Date: 5/21/99 1:20:24 AM Central Daylight Time
> From: MixtMedia@aol.com
> Reply-to: HREF="mailto:letterbox-usa@egroups.com">letterbox-usa@egroups.com

> To: letterbox-usa@egroups.com
>
> In a message dated 5/20/99 7:27:34 PM Central Daylight Time,
> Sherrijo99@aol.com writes:
>
> > My point is two very thoughtful people brought this sport to the
forefront
>
> > and should have some respect shown them in particular DAN
>
> We were invited to join this particular group and this site because
> of a common vision for US letterboxing. We have been encouraged
> to express our opinions and desires for the site, and in this way, to
> guide and shape its ultimate expression.
> It is not disrespectful or ungrateful to have a differing opinion.
> I also believe it is in US letterboxing's best interest to have as
> many clues as possible on one site, regardless of whether the
> clues are on the site itself, or links.
>
> Deborah
>
Ouch Okay already have learned my lesson folk will keep my mouth shut
Okay enough already
Sherri

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Amen, Deborah!

>From: MixtMedia@aol.com
>Reply-To: letterbox-usa@egroups.com
>To: letterbox-usa@egroups.com
>Subject: [L-USA] Re: Vision
>Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 01:33:54 EDT
>
>In a message dated 5/20/99 7:27:34 PM Central Daylight Time,
>Sherrijo99@aol.com writes:
>
> > My point is two very thoughtful people brought this sport to the
>forefront
> > and should have some respect shown them in particular DAN
>
> We were invited to join this particular group and this site because
>of a common vision for US letterboxing. We have been encouraged
>to express our opinions and desires for the site, and in this way, to
>guide and shape its ultimate expression.
> It is not disrespectful or ungrateful to have a differing opinion.
> I also believe it is in US letterboxing's best interest to have as
>many clues as possible on one site, regardless of whether the
>clues are on the site itself, or links.
>
> Deborah
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
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>
>
>
>
>


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Deborah, what you said sort of sums up the way I perceived alot of
the discussions from before as well. It's unfortunate that some folks felt a
need to pull their clues from the site, but we all need to do this they way
it's most fun and comfortable for us. I just hope there is always a
relatively easy way to find clues for people's letterboxes if they choose
not to post them on the L-USA site.
PS... Thom, Kevin and I may make an attempt to find the rest of the rock
creek series this weekend...can't you give me any more hints about the one
that is "over where you go under" ????? I went under all sorts of branches,
trees, etc, and could've gone under even more! I'm just whining, really, and
I'm sure that giving hints is some sort of Letterboxing Taboo...if it isn't
though....
Cara

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Sherrijo99@aol.com wrote:
> > My point is two very thoughtful people brought this sport to the
> > forefront and should have some respect shown them...

I aprreciate the compliment and the support Sherri Jo.
Dan

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In a message dated 5/17/99 6:52:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
randy@mapsurfer.com writes:

<<
Reply to: letterbox-usa@egroups.com
To: letterbox-usa@egroups.com >>
Am I stupid or what? Where are the darn clue? I am missing something. I
want clues for any Fla. boxes. Thanks

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To :Nanlhunt

You can find clues for Florida, and the reat of the US, at either:
http://www.pclink.com/elf/letbox.htm
or
www.letterboxing.org

CLick on Florida, on the map. Not too many yet in Fla. Those listed aer
by Eric Mings,at www.letterboxing.com
Good luck
Erik Davis



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