I think there is a compromise here. As long as we remain respectful while planting in cemeteries, what harm is done? The search for the box could take you through the cemetery but the actual box could be planted on the outside fringes of the property. These cemeteries not only have wonderful history but, in some small way, I think the planting of letterboxes in cemeteries brings an awareness and a newfound appreciation for our past. As long as we don't overplant or abuse the situation, I say continue - tempered with respect.


Have fun and just get out there & box!!!

Mark Pepe

http://pepeanddavidow.blogspot.com/

I have placed a letterbox at the National Cemetery in Florence, SC. I feel no boxes should be placed anywhere especially cemeteries without PERMISSION from someone. I know the red-tape that I went through to place this letterbox. Permission came from Washington, DC and as a matter of fact they were very intrigued by the idea because so many of our National Cemeteries receive very, very few visitors. There is so much history there and we should be honored to have placed like that to pay tribute to the men & women who gave us our freedom that we take forgranted. Patriotism has fallen by the wayside and if nothing else, I hope my letterbox will help promote patriotism. Remember: HISTORY THAT IS FORGOTTEN TENDS TO REPEAT ITSELF.

My box is hidden in a place where none of the grave sites will be distrubed as well as, the clues do not lead you through the middle of the cemetery. I was very careful to make sure that all respect is given for our fallen heros. Please view my clues.

I still feel that no box should be placed anywhere without permission.

Amanda Miller
G/S Troop 18

I think letterboxing in cemeteries should occur with the utmost
respect and concern for survivors of its 'permanent residents' as
possible. I can't even imagine personally placing a box in a
cemetery that is still open for 'new members.' The thought of
participating in a 'fun' hobby in such a solemn locale personally
doesn't pass the 'gut test' with me. It just doesn't feel right and
invokes a certain queasiness just thinking about it. That's usually
what guides me when I decide to hide a letterbox someplace (in the
event there aren't already other rules prohibiting the activity in a
locale).

However, I have found a couple of letterboxes in cemeteries and
thoroughly enjoyed the hunt--BUT these were in HISTORICAL & PIONEER
cemeteries that certainly were no longer receiving new 'residents'.
It was obvious that very few, if any, folks were even visiting these
cemeteries and there were even LARGE historical markers encouraging
folks (tourists?) to learn more about the permanent residents
contained on its premises scattered all about the cemetery. In that
situation, as long as the placer respects the premises, makes an
exceptional effort at hiding the container as discreetly and far
away from 'personal plots' as possible, then it seems to sit well
with my 'gut test'. I would just encourage folks to use the 'what
if my relatives were buried here--would I still think this was
appropriate?' test when they consider placing a box in a cemetery
type venue.

This topic sort of hits home with us, too, as we recently buried a
loved one (about a month ago). Even in mourning I think we can
still come up with a respectful and appropriate 'guideline'
regarding letterboxing in cemeteries that encourages placers to
consider the feelings of the loved ones/survivors when deciding
whether to place a letterbox on the premises.

Oh--an idea that might remedy this is to offset a letterbox!
Encourage the finder to find some information contained on a plaque
or something on the premise (provided it's open to the public) that
helps them solve the clue and then physically hide the letterbox
somewhere else. It works quite well for locales that don't support
these hobbies but still offer great venues for learning about
history, hiking, wildlife viewing, etc.

I'm curious to see how others feel about this subject, too.

dvn2r ckr

I have this bad habit of thinking everyone thinks like I do. I know,
it's bad... *shrug* I'd be HONORED if someone hid a letterbox in a
cemetary that I was buried in, so I tend to think that others would
as well.

That, and when I'm dead and gone, I'm not really going to care what
happens six-feet above. Build a Wal-Mart on top of me for all it
matters. (I'd probably enjoy the controversy that ensues while
watching from above, anyhow!)

Consequently, I don't really see a problem with hiding letterboxes in
cemetaries. But darn it, some people actually expect tact and grace
in cemetaries--fuddy duddies. Whatever. *shrug*

-- Ryan

Hi, Jay,

"Off limits" sounds too strong for me. I'd say, "strongly recommended" that you either get permission (from a cemetery that is still actively used or is on private property) or keep the box out of the cemetery proper, and show the utmost concern and care whether or not it's active or historical. Many boxes around here with "cemetery" in the clue do not require the finder to be disrespectful of the gravesites, or even walk around a lot leaving a path. Often the boxes are in a stone wall, or better still, behind or outside of the cemetery, such as behind the stone wall in a small rock cairn. Just my 2 cents.

Mary (RI)
----- Original Message -----
From: drewclan@aol.com
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 10:40 AM
Subject: [LbNA] Cemeteries


(sorry if this double-posts...)

Can I open a topic for input on a potential new "Rule?"

One of the recent complaints from property owners about inappropriate
letterboxes came from the pastor of a congregation who discovered a letterbox clue on
the website that was placed in his church cemetery.

Now we've planted cemetery boxes ourselves, even quite recently, and we are
frequent cemetery volunteers (check out www.raogk.org for more info), so we
understand the allure of hiding boxes there. They're scenic, full of history,
have good potential hiding places, open to the public, and the neighbors are
quiet.

I can also understand the pastor's dilemma: they are often private property
and great respect must be shown for the people who use them and for the
religious aspects. A more letterboxing-specific pitfall comes to mind as well; those
busy grounds keepers.

When there were just a few boxes here and there, an occasional cemetery
letterbox didn't seem to offer potential problems. I find 17 boxes at LbNA with
"cemetery" in the name, and I'm sure there are more. Now that the growth of
letterboxes is exploding (and we have almost doubled our numbers since the new site
went online a year ago), perhaps cemeteries should be off limits?

What does the community think?

Jay in CT


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have searched for boxes in cemetaries, and I feel that it can be
done properly and with respect.

First and foremost, ask permission from the owner or manager. e.g.
Is there a house of worship next to it? Is there a management
office on the grounds? Is there a cemetary department at the local
municipal offices? In some cases there may not be anyone managing
it, but try to find out first.

Second, be respectful of the departed. Write the clues to honor the
historic signifigance of the cemetary. Honor the accomplishments of
the residents. Ask yourself, "What if my reletives were interred
here, would I object to what is written?"

Third, be respectiful of the visitors who come to pay their
respects. In some cases the cemetary may set aside hours for
recreational visitors, and hours for funerals and mourning. Put
these in the clues.

All in all the planting of boxes in cemetaries can connect us to the
past and those who have gone before.
The Bird Stamper.


--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, drewclan@a... wrote:
> (sorry if this double-posts...)
>
> Can I open a topic for input on a potential new "Rule?"
>
> One of the recent complaints from property owners about
inappropriate
> letterboxes came from the pastor of a congregation who discovered
a letterbox clue on
> the website that was placed in his church cemetery.
> (....)
> Jay in CT

One must also remember that many "old" [family, pioneer &
Historical] cemeteries may be owned by a family member. My family
owns two "family cemeteries" in Southeast Missouri and legally we
can still be buried in them. We own the deeds to the property and it
has been in our family for over 156 years. Just because a cemetery
is old doesn't mean that people may no longer be being buried
there.By law I'm entitled to be buried there when I die.

Family cemeteries are not that common on the West Coast but I know
that in the older areas of the country that there are lots of them.
Especially throughout the Midwest/Southern area of the USA. In
Washington State we have many "public" pioneer cemeteries but not
very many family ones. That may be due to the fact that we didn't
have large family farms that people inheirited for generations.

I was recently visiting our family cemeteries and thought about
planting a letterbox there but realized that it could negatively
impact the area if "non-letterboxers" found the clues. One of our
cemeteries is located 2 miles down a dirt/gravel road near St. James
Missouri.The caretaker lives kitty-corner from it and is frequently
has to chase highschool students out during the summertime.

Many small "family/historical" cemeteries are constantly facing
problems with people thinking that they are abandoned and "public
domain". By no means am I saying that people shouldn't place
letterboxes in/around cemeteries. Like others have expressed be
considerate of the surroundings, the enviroment and people who may
be visiting it. I would also ask the owners/caretaker just as I
would if I wanted to place a letterbox in a place of business.

And if I was to decide to hunt down a box placed in a cemetery I
would do it with the utmost respect for the residents and visitors
there.

Just my three cents!
MiniBullyMom

I have only one cemetery box, and it is not "IN" the cemetery but just
outside in a stone wall. I personally enjoy the cemetery ones since I have
to be REALLY "on my toes" with what I'm looking for (I'm getting REALLY good
at them too! except when I can't get INTO the cemetery due to the huge
amounts of snow around the gates.... UGH!!!). I wonder if there's some way
to plant boxes just outside of the cemetery, but use landmarks in the
cemetery to help find it?

Pardon my 1/2 cent remarks.....
Music Woman


>From: drewclan@aol.com
>Reply-To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
>To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [LbNA] Cemeteries
>Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:40:20 EST
>
>(sorry if this double-posts...)
>
>Can I open a topic for input on a potential new "Rule?"
>
>One of the recent complaints from property owners about inappropriate
>letterboxes came from the pastor of a congregation who discovered a
>letterbox clue on
>the website that was placed in his church cemetery.
>
>Now we've planted cemetery boxes ourselves, even quite recently, and we are
>frequent cemetery volunteers (check out www.raogk.org for more info), so we
>understand the allure of hiding boxes there. They're scenic, full of
>history,
>have good potential hiding places, open to the public, and the neighbors
>are
>quiet.
>
>I can also understand the pastor's dilemma: they are often private property
>and great respect must be shown for the people who use them and for the
>religious aspects. A more letterboxing-specific pitfall comes to mind as
>well; those
>busy grounds keepers.
>
>When there were just a few boxes here and there, an occasional cemetery
>letterbox didn't seem to offer potential problems. I find 17 boxes at LbNA
>with
>"cemetery" in the name, and I'm sure there are more. Now that the growth of
>letterboxes is exploding (and we have almost doubled our numbers since the
>new site
>went online a year ago), perhaps cemeteries should be off limits?
>
>What does the community think?
>
>Jay in CT

_________________________________________________________________
Store more e-mails with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage 4 plans to choose from!
http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/

When we bury a loved one we do it with honor and respect. The place
becomes honorary and respectable in the process. Any letterbox
placed in such an honored place must be placed with just such
respect. Still, the body is just a shell and any respect that is
paid to the body or the place is in the mind and heart of the
visitor. The person in the ground does not care any longer as they
have vacated the shell and their mind and spirit no longer dwell
there. Still, again, the deceased's loved ones may still hold the
place in such honor that an intrusion on that place may be taken as
disrespectful. Here is where discretion is needed-both on the part
of the box placer and on the part of the searcher to treat the place
with the respect it is due and not go trampling willy nilly all over
the place. There is a respectful way to do this which both honors
those who are gone, those who love them, and also allows reasonable
access for the boxer.

I have placed at a letterbox in a cemetery. It is a very peaceful,
beautiful and important historical place. It is also the resting
place of several of my ancestors, most recently my paternal
grandmother who we buried there only 4 months ago. It would be my
wish that people who search for my letterbox there do so with all the
respect deserved to a loved one, a war hero, and a forefather (all of
which are represented in the cemetery). It is also my desire that
people do actualy go there, I encourage as many people as possible to
visit the site as I feel that it does give respect to those who are
now gone. It also reminds us of just how temporary our life is in
view of the eternal.

I believe that the vast majority of people who will visit this box
will benefit from the peacefullness and beauty of this place as well
as the exposure to the idea of death as it relates to our temporary
life. When was the last time that you were at a cemetery? Was is a
positive experience? Even though sometimes painful, visiting a
cemetery connects people to the idea of a temporary life and
encourages them to take a look at their own life and re-examine their
priorities and that is healthy.

Again, I encourage those interested in placing boxes in cemeteries to
do so with the utmost respect but to yes, do place boxes in
cemeteries. I also encourage letterboxers to seek them there but
with respect. Not the same respect that would not want to be given to
you if you were buried there, but with the same respect that you
would think the most sensitive person you could imagine's loved ones
were buried there. And if you do not feel that it is appropriate to
letterbox in a cemetery, then dont. But please respect those of us
who do and honor those who we honor with our boxes.

Nailhead of the Nail Family

> My box is hidden in a place where none of the grave sites will be
distrubed as well as, the clues do not lead you through the middle of
the cemetery. I was very careful to make sure that all respect is
given for our fallen heros. Please view my clues.

> Amanda Miller
> G/S Troop 18

Bravo, you have truly honored them.
Nailhead

We have a large cemetery here that was designed in the late 1800's to
be a place for folks to come and enjoy as a park, in addition to its
being a cemetery. It is beautifully laid out with small hills, areas of
trees, little valleys, etc. People jog, walk dogs as well as visit
their loved ones.

As long as the approval of the caretakers is given, I can't see a
problem......but, again, only with approval. I would at all times
remember the primary purpose of the land where this box is placed, and
if the reason for its being there (someone running/going around having
fun) is causing pain and upsetting grieving families, then I would
remove it.

catbead

I exactly agree. Part of the place that cemeteries have in our society is a memorial. I was very touched when looking for a particular letterbox in RI to go to a marker for a WWI veteran of my old Army unit, the 103rd Field Artillery! Cemeteries and graveyards, approached with respect, are a wonderful place to even take school children, to answer their questions about the past (Not just a stale history book, but a collection of people trying to make ends meet!). Letterbox clues can point out something that otherwise may go ignored in the bustle of life. There's a very old grave on Jamestown, RI, marked only by a pattern of small rocks in the ground that says "MOTHER". She should be visited by someone.
Another, deeper part, though, is that graveyards and cemeteries are where people go to mourn. Utmost care must be taken to preserve the sacred atmosphere. Fortunately, I believe that letterboxers are a very thoughtful bunch, and I appreciate how much you've all approached this topic.

Dave
the von der Insels

----- Original Message -----
From: dvn2rckr
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 11:11 AM
Subject: [LbNA] Re: Cemeteries


I think letterboxing in cemeteries should occur with the utmost
respect and concern for survivors of its 'permanent residents' as
possible. I can't even imagine personally placing a box in a
cemetery that is still open for 'new members.' The thought of
participating in a 'fun' hobby in such a solemn locale personally
doesn't pass the 'gut test' with me. It just doesn't feel right and
invokes a certain queasiness just thinking about it. That's usually
what guides me when I decide to hide a letterbox someplace (in the
event there aren't already other rules prohibiting the activity in a
locale).

However, I have found a couple of letterboxes in cemeteries and
thoroughly enjoyed the hunt--BUT these were in HISTORICAL & PIONEER
cemeteries that certainly were no longer receiving new 'residents'.
It was obvious that very few, if any, folks were even visiting these
cemeteries and there were even LARGE historical markers encouraging
folks (tourists?) to learn more about the permanent residents
contained on its premises scattered all about the cemetery. In that
situation, as long as the placer respects the premises, makes an
exceptional effort at hiding the container as discreetly and far
away from 'personal plots' as possible, then it seems to sit well
with my 'gut test'. I would just encourage folks to use the 'what
if my relatives were buried here--would I still think this was
appropriate?' test when they consider placing a box in a cemetery
type venue.

This topic sort of hits home with us, too, as we recently buried a
loved one (about a month ago). Even in mourning I think we can
still come up with a respectful and appropriate 'guideline'
regarding letterboxing in cemeteries that encourages placers to
consider the feelings of the loved ones/survivors when deciding
whether to place a letterbox on the premises.

Oh--an idea that might remedy this is to offset a letterbox!
Encourage the finder to find some information contained on a plaque
or something on the premise (provided it's open to the public) that
helps them solve the clue and then physically hide the letterbox
somewhere else. It works quite well for locales that don't support
these hobbies but still offer great venues for learning about
history, hiking, wildlife viewing, etc.

I'm curious to see how others feel about this subject, too.

dvn2r ckr


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At the start of this thread, it was mentioned that a box had been
found and complained about. Would it be possible to find out if
that was the box I placed in a cemetary in NJ? If so, I want to get
rid of the clues.
As far as being respectful, the box I placed was not touching the
hallowed ground, and I do not think any disrespect was shown to the
dead. I placed the box in a cemetary that had pretty much been
abandoned for the past twenty years or so. Most of the headstones
are no longer visible due to the amount of weeds and such that have
built up there, so I would be amazed if someone was offended that
people would be directed there.
-cg

Chris,
It was not yours. It was in CT and has been removed.

"chris g." wrote:
At the start of this thread, it was mentioned that a box had been
found and complained about. Would it be possible to find out if
that was the box I placed in a cemetary in NJ? If so, I want to get
rid of the clues.
As far as being respectful, the box I placed was not touching the
hallowed ground, and I do not think any disrespect was shown to the
dead. I placed the box in a cemetary that had pretty much been
abandoned for the past twenty years or so. Most of the headstones
are no longer visible due to the amount of weeds and such that have
built up there, so I would be amazed if someone was offended that
people would be directed there.
-cg




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey, I have *permission* to plant a box in a local, historic,
still-used cemetery (though haven't had the chance to get it done
yet). The sexton enjoys visitors (who are not vandals), as frequent
visitors discourage vandals and generally appreciate the history etc.
there. In fact, he thinks it's really cool, and he can't wait to bump
into some letterboxers.

Now, we don't often ask permission, we're of the belief that its
easier to appologize afterward...but where the grounds are impecably
groomed or an ethical objection may be likely, it's a good idea. We
have to think of our image to the public. I think we'd want to avoid
the rath of the eco-people who could get us banned from all sorts of
beautiful, letterbox-worthy places (like what's happened already with
National Parks).

~ Aili

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, drewclan@a... wrote:
> ...
> Now we've planted cemetery boxes ourselves, even quite recently, and
we are
> frequent cemetery volunteers (check out www.raogk.org for more
info), so we
> understand the allure of hiding boxes there. They're scenic, full of
history,
> have good potential hiding places, open to the public, and the
neighbors are
> quiet.
> ....

> perhaps cemeteries should be off limits?
> What does the community think?

I think cemeteries should definitely be off limits. Now above
cemeteries is a different matter.
--Buzzard