First let me offer my sympathy to you, Julie, on your vandalized
boxes. I do urge you not to lose heart, and to keep carving. You may
find it easier, at the present time, to move on to new boxes, rather
than recarving the old stamps. I don't know. But I am sure we will
all be thinking about ways to avoid having our boxes simply stumbled
upon.

I thought Adrian's comments on 'plugging' were fascinating. The boxes
I've hidden and found to date have all been concealed under stones.
Hiding them under earth definitely adds a new level of difficulty
for both the clue writer and the solver. Real buried treasure now. I
love it. But I don't think we _have_ to do this in order to keep our
boxes from being found accidentally.

IMO, Dan is certainly right when he states that our present
course steers between the extremes of rampant promotion and
clandestine operation. As several others have said, I think it
extremely unlikely that Julie's boxes were deliberately sought out
and vandalized by someone who found the clues on the Internet.

It seems to me that your cyber-vandals are the virus-writers who
enjoy proving their potency and cleverness without having to get off
their butts. I don't see them tramping around the moor (or the
urban park), compass in one hand, trowel in the other. The enjoyment
of encoding and decoding is there in both the hacker and the
letterboxer, but I think there are important differences in their
mentalities.

I can imagine that a box might be sought out and vandalized
deliberately by someone local who knew and had a serious grudge
against the hider, but not by anyone else. Far more likely that the
box was found accidentally. We just have to work at ways of hiding
them better - which is what we should all be doing anyway. Those
discussions on our list have been the most interesting to me all
along.

The clues, like the boxes, are really out of our hands once they have
been given to anyone - list member, password-holder, trusted friend,
whomever. We can slow down the rate at which they proliferate - and
we may want to do that, for a variety of reasons, at some point in
the future. But ultimately, we can't control their spread. We
have to trust in the basic good will of people in general (and
of we letterboxing types in particular!)

There is no fail-safe security system. The more we might concentrate
on computerized protection schemes, the more attractive we would
become to the dreaded cyber-stalker. But, as I say, I don't really
believe in that bogyman in our case. The persons we need to guard
against are those who stumble upon our boxes in or near the path, not
on the web.

Best to all,

Tom


Dan wrote ..

> This is a thought that came to me after watching the last couple
> day's posts: It seems to me there are two extremes to avoid.
>
> Extreme #1 - Rampant promotion of the hobby
>
> With this you would get, if not commercialism, at least the
> proliferation of letterboxing news throughout many circles of
> people whether we know them or not and whether they have a
> genuine interest in the hobby or not. We would not only
> post clues in the public domain, we would make certain
> (just like in a commercial venture) that people become
> familiar with the hobby and the clues source whether or
> not they were predisposed to this or had any interest.
>
> Extreme #2 - The clandestine operation
>
> With this you would require people to be on the inside for
> clues information. You would probably NOT post them in the
> public domain. People would have to contact us directly,
> perhaps swear to an oath of secrecy, etc. It would evolve
> into a small, exclusive group. You'd have little or no
> openness with this.
>
> Where is the middle ground?
>
> I think the middle ground is precisely where our vision is:
> We have an open group with an open philosophy. On the other
> hand we do not have commercialism or rampant (overly-energetic)
> promotion of the hobby. This is a real good place to be I think.
> And I think it is where we were bound to end up in order to make
> a success of this, while keeping it open and inclusive by (wisely)
> using the inernet and the free e-mail list.
>
> But more importantly we have people of character here. We're
> getting to know each other. That will go a long way I think.
> Its a testimony to the ability (even of the internet) to accomodate
> something good and healthy and noble. The reason this can happen
> is that you all make it happen. I'm coming to like you all the
> more I get to know you. I hope we keep growing in this same
> manner and that the best in you keeps coming out the way I have
> seen it for these past 9 months.
>
> Thank you all for being helpful and constructive throughout,
> Dan Servatius
>
> Ps. Please let me know if there is anything I can do for any of
> you.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> For the absolute lowest price on software visit:
> http://www.bottomdollar.com/egroups/
>
> eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/letterbox-usa
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>
Tom Cooch
tcooch@sover.net

aka The Orient Express
Braintree, VT

"The game is afoot!"

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> Reply-to: letterbox-usa@egroups.com
> Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 10:37:24 -0800
> From: erik/susan davis
> To: letterbox-usa@egroups.com
> Subject: [L-USA] Re: Perspective

> > I thought Adrian's comments on 'plugging' were fascinating. The boxes
> > I've hidden and found to date have all been concealed under stones.
> > Hiding them under earth definitely adds a new level of difficulty
> > for both the clue writer and the solver. Real buried treasure now.
>
> Tom...
> Hmmmm..... I had just about concluded that 'Rollin Rock' was indeed
> "plugged", Adrian-style, which was the obvoius reason that I couldn't
> find it. Oh well.....
>
> Erik
>

Well ... sort of plugged, I guess. Maybe "snugged".

Tom

Tom Cooch
tcooch@sover.net

aka The Orient Express
Braintree, VT

"The game is afoot!"

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> I thought Adrian's comments on 'plugging' were fascinating. The boxes
> I've hidden and found to date have all been concealed under stones.
> Hiding them under earth definitely adds a new level of difficulty
> for both the clue writer and the solver. Real buried treasure now.

Tom...
Hmmmm..... I had just about concluded that 'Rollin Rock' was indeed
"plugged", Adrian-style, which was the obvoius reason that I couldn't
find it. Oh well.....

Erik


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Daniel Servatius wrote:
>

> I think the middle ground is precisely where our vision is:

Very well put. Let's keep the group open for new people who really want
to do this, but not advertise in the NY Times or anything.

--
Thom Cheney
tcgrafx... among other things

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In a message dated 1/9/99 8:12:05 PM Pacific Standard Time, elf@pclink.com
writes:

> This is a thought that came to me after watching the last couple
> day's posts: It seems to me there are two extremes to avoid.
>
> Extreme #1 - Rampant promotion of the hobby....
> Extreme #2 - The clandestine operation....
>
> Where is the middle ground?
>
> I think the middle ground is precisely where our vision is:
> We have an open group with an open philosophy. On the other
> hand we do not have commercialism or rampant promotion....
>
> But more importantly we have people of character here....


In other words, what we have here are LETTERBOXERS.
People of distinction and character.
People with manners. People with a sense of adventure.
People with imagination; with respect for tradition...
and for nature.

These are the kinds of people who will seek out this hobby.
That's why we all click so well. Despite our different back-
grounds, we all share similar qualities which have drawn us
to Letterboxing. I get the impression that this holds true in
the UK, as well.

I think we can relax and go about our business knowing that
most of our potential foes would find our hobby too boring to
even bother with. As long as we don't sensationalize our hobby
and try to 'sell' it to the mainstream public, most ne'r-do-wells
will not even notice that we exist. Our openly shared maps
and clues will be effectively hidden in the vastness of cyberspace
just as our letterboxes are hidden in the vastness of nature.

There will continue to be random acts of destruction that we must
accept as part of the game. But these will be isolated incidents.
We can't let them discourage us. By far, most of our letterboxes
will be successful. So says my crystal ball.

'Der Mad Stamper'

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Mitch "Der Mad Stamper" Klink wrote:
> As long as we don't sensationalize our hobby
> and try to 'sell' it to the mainstream public, most ne'r-do-wells
> will not even notice that we exist. Our openly shared maps
> and clues will be effectively hidden in the vastness of cyberspace
> just as our letterboxes are hidden in the vastness of nature.

I thought these comments of Mitch's were pithy and bore repeating.

Dan

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Reply-to: letterbox-usa@egroups.com
From: Letterboxr@aol.com
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:56:33 EST
To: letterbox-usa@egroups.com
Subject: [L-USA] Re: Perspective

In a message dated 1/9/99 8:12:05 PM Pacific Standard Time, elf@pclink.com
writes:

> This is a thought that came to me after watching the last couple
> day's posts: It seems to me there are two extremes to avoid.
>
> Extreme #1 - Rampant promotion of the hobby....
> Extreme #2 - The clandestine operation....
>
> Where is the middle ground?
>
> I think the middle ground is precisely where our vision is:
> We have an open group with an open philosophy. On the other
> hand we do not have commercialism or rampant promotion....
>
> But more importantly we have people of character here....


In other words, what we have here are LETTERBOXERS.
People of distinction and character.
People with manners. People with a sense of adventure.
People with imagination; with respect for tradition...
and for nature.

These are the kinds of people who will seek out this hobby.
That's why we all click so well. Despite our different back-
grounds, we all share similar qualities which have drawn us
to Letterboxing. I get the impression that this holds true in
the UK, as well.

I think we can relax and go about our business knowing that
most of our potential foes would find our hobby too boring to
even bother with. As long as we don't sensationalize our hobby
and try to 'sell' it to the mainstream public, most ne'r-do-wells
will not even notice that we exist. Our openly shared maps
and clues will be effectively hidden in the vastness of cyberspace
just as our letterboxes are hidden in the vastness of nature.

There will continue to be random acts of destruction that we must
accept as part of the game. But these will be isolated incidents.
We can't let them discourage us. By far, most of our letterboxes
will be successful. So says my crystal ball.

'Der Mad Stamper'


Very well put, Mitch!

Tom
Tom Cooch
tcooch@sover.net

aka The Orient Express
Braintree, VT

"The game is afoot!"

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