Old-school curmudgeon? I think not! How about a pioneer whose
opinion matters very much to those who really know the essence of
this game? Please never let your voice be silent!

I have to agree with Jay on this one. I do not want my boxes, nor my
hitchhikers, tracked any place other than seeker's logbooks. In my
never to be humble opinion letterboxing is fast becoming the lazy
person's playground and certainly not in the spirit of letterboxing
as I've come to know it.

Add me in to the list of old grouches...

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Drew Family"
wrote:
> re the yahoogroup database: I really don't like it and have worked
> for years to keep that kind of geocaching style reporting off the
> LbNA site.
> Is there a way to opt out of having our own letterboxes tracked
there?
> Jay, an old-school curmudgeon in CT

I'm with Jay...
I understand the desire to want to track the status of boxes, so you know if
it's worth trying (we do search the archive at times for certain boxes), but
wasn't the point of all this to get off our butts, go outside and enjoy the day
and the company?

Kim (Rustypuff)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jay,

Would you mind explaining why you don't like it? I am not seasoned enough to
know the finer points yet.

Feel free to take this off lsit if it would be more appropriate

Thanks in advance,

Pam in OH
-----Original Message-----
From: Drew Family [mailto:drewclan@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 12:31 AM
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [LbNA] Dart-where?


re the yahoogroup database: I really don't like it and have worked
for years to keep that kind of geocaching style reporting off the
LbNA site.

Is there a way to opt out of having our own letterboxes tracked there?

Jay, an old-school curmudgeon in CT


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Drew Family"
wrote:

> re the yahoogroup database: I really don't like it

I normally keep my opinions off the list, but I also have to side
with Jay. While I won't go so far as to ask people not to list my
boxes, I won't be using the Status Database.

Mahjong, nothing personal. I believe you created this with the very
best of intentions, and it sounds like there are plenty of people out
there who appreciate your efforts. I'm not asking for the database
to disappear, I just want everyone to know that Jay is not alone in
his opinion.

CSCM

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "cscm88" wrote:
> --- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Drew Family"
> wrote:
>
> > re the yahoogroup database: I really don't like it
>
> I normally keep my opinions off the list, but I also have to side
> with Jay. While I won't go so far as to ask people not to list my
> boxes, I won't be using the Status Database.
>
>
> -- snip --
>
> CSCM

This is right where I stand -- with CSCM and Jay. Although I
personally do not feel the need or the desire for it, there seem to
be a lot of people who want some kind of status reporting. Mahjong
did a very nice job on the database and I would rather see the status
updates off the list in a database than on-list.

I am not going to attempt to say that people cannot report status of
my boxes in the database, however I will not be using the database
myself. I prefer to make direct contact with the box placer when
status information needs to be exchanged.

The "challenge" is about solving clues and finding letterboxes.

SpringChick

Jay, SpringChick, A.D. and everyone who responded with regard to
the "database" being a troublesome idea on a number of different
levels. To all of you, many thanks for saying it exactly right.

Just a passing thought. Did anyone pass this database concept by the
list owner or moderators for their input or, minimally, query the
group via a poll for consensus before putting it up? I don't recall
seeing an opportunity for anyone's input before it just appeared,
albeit, I'm sure, with the best of intentions.

I would certainly hope that a mention of any of my few boxes would
never be made on the "database." Did I read anyone could delete
anything there?

*wistfully remembering how the game was once played*

Linda a/k/a Alafair
One of the "Elder Curmudgeons"

Please don't take this off list. I think there are many of us that don't
like having a database thrust on us and for good reasons. this has been a
matter of debate for some time. I have to go to work right now, but will
chip in my two cents later.

From: "Pam Kleingers"
Reply-To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:03:15 -0400
To:
Subject: RE: [LbNA] Dart-where?


Jay,

Would you mind explaining why you don't like it? I am not seasoned enough to
know the finer points yet.

Feel free to take this off lsit if it would be more appropriate

Thanks in advance,

Pam in OH
-----Original Message-----
From: Drew Family [mailto:drewclan@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 12:31 AM
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [LbNA] Dart-where?


re the yahoogroup database: I really don't like it and have worked
for years to keep that kind of geocaching style reporting off the
LbNA site.

Is there a way to opt out of having our own letterboxes tracked there?

Jay, an old-school curmudgeon in CT


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Because I'm a "newbie" and close to an "8 year old" (I'm 18, lol), I
do understand how it would be a help. I think it was a great job on
Mahjongs part. I'd say for those who want to use it, that's great.
And if you don't, thats great too. I feel its just your personal
choice. I don't necessarily think some boxes should NOT be posted,
but if your'e the owner, I understand that it's your own decission.
Also, finders can always choose whether or not they want to click
the "database" link. If you don't want to be spoiled, then you don't
have to use it (as other members have already mentioned). I realise
I'm going against the grain with this post. I'm just expression an
opinion and i hope no onedecides to dislike me for it ;)

Lauren

Just a quick note on a one point here, it's NOT geocaching style of reporting... As a webmaster and website creator, I am very interested in how sites are put together. The database at the yahoo groups site is nothing like the geocaching website or that style of reporting. If it were, then we'd not need any type of clues at all, we'd simply use my new Nextel phone (That comes GPS enabled) and get to within 15 feet of the location of the box and flail away madly without regard for the environment....

I compare it this way..... Letterboxers are the silent stealthy foxes of the world, hardly seen when they grab a target, whereas Goechachers are, in my not so humble opinion, akin to a herd of slightly myopic, partially dyslexic elephants that have to thrash around for 50 feet in all directions to locate the prize, usually located in an object the size a small child, filled with trinkets the Indians would have scoffed at. Not that I have anything against anyone you see......

This database, while in it's infancy, is something that's going to stir the emotions of everyone... Much as most anything posted here does... We are, after all, the fanatical ones about our chosen hobby and we don't like change for the most part. Not that change is good or bad, just that most humans are more comfortable if things don't change.

I for one do not like the DB because it lets someone who gave up, for whatever reason, update the status of the box incorrectly. The database at the main website is to limited, again, in my not so humble opinion. What's needed is something that melds the two together.

Team Rayvenhaus
----- Original Message -----
From: Drew Family
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 9:30 PM
Subject: [LbNA] Dart-where?


*This message was transferred with a trial version of CommuniGate(tm) Pro* re the yahoogroup database: I really don't like it and have worked
for years to keep that kind of geocaching style reporting off the
LbNA site.

Is there a way to opt out of having our own letterboxes tracked there?

Jay, an old-school curmudgeon in CT


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jay's opinion has always held great weight for me and for good reason.

I feel that the database is a serious breach of letterboxing
etiquette. It undermines the personal responsibility of the placer
of the box. So what if a placer never checks it again. It's out
there for your enjoyment, or is it? ;). Isn't that the fun of it?

Laurette

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Drew Family"
wrote:
> re the yahoogroup database: I really don't like it and have worked
> for years to keep that kind of geocaching style reporting off the
> LbNA site.
>
> Is there a way to opt out of having our own letterboxes tracked
there?
>
> Jay, an old-school curmudgeon in CT

*This message was transferred with a trial version of CommuniGate(tm) Pro*


Sorry Springchick, I had to answer a few thiings here, or at least comment
on themn. Please don't tkae this as a flame at all...

>----- Original Message -----
>From: SpringChick
>To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 3:18 AM
>Subject: [LbNA] Re: Dart-where?
>
>
>From what I have heard, there is a game played in England, particularly in
>Dartmoor National Park, bearing a faint resemblance to the
>hobby we call letterboxing. It is called... letterboxing! Seeing as how
it has
>actually been around for over a hundred years, technically it
>is "the original."
>

It's this type of tongue in cheek that many on this list seem to take as a
sarcastic tone of voice. Most everyone should know that this hobby came
from Dartmoor, if they don't then I'm sure that someone will point it out to
them in a less tongue in cheek manner.

>The primary difference is the mystique. In the crusty, dusty old rendition
of
>the game, just getting your hands on clues to letterboxes was
>often challenging. Deciphering the sparse, cryptic notations once you did
get
>them, was rarely as easy as 1-2-3, and even after spending
>weeks/months/years solving a clue, one may journey considerable distance
>to the location and find the box no longer in existance. But in
>such instance, where a player has put significant effort into solving the
clue,
>there is still a great satisfaction, even though there is no box.
>The reward in this game is mastering the challenge, not necessarily the
stamp
>in the log book. In this version of the game, there is a
>respect for other players, particularly those who have been playing the
game
>for a while (I guess these would be those that are known
>today as "oldies"). I know, you are thinking... say it isn't so, but it
is!

I've one simple question here, asked in all humility and deference... how
does one master the challenge if they can not locate the end, or the prize,
or at least a sign that they have in fact, mastered the challenge? By the
simple fact that they assume they were correct in the translation? If
that's so, then I get the gold and silver buried at the Desprado in the west
somewhere becuase I think I've gotten that muystery all figured out. Oh,
wait... That's right... If I do figure it out, I DO get all the gold and
silver buried there. Here, if someone or something vandalizes a box and I
drive 3+ hours, as I will be this Wed, to get to the location, that's too
bad, it's all a part of the sport, right? 3 hours of wear and tear on my
car, the gas and food I speant money on to get there and all for what? So I
could prove I was able to decipher the clues correctly, I think? I'm not
asking for big bright neon signs, pointing like fingers of god at the
location of the box. Nor am I asking for clues that say, "Walk up to the
ranger station and ask for the stamp." either. But I am asking for someway
of indicating that the box is in trouble or at least suspected of being so.
I went on the 9th to Tumwater Falls here in Washington State and we came
across a box that had been vandalized and the stump it was in severly
damaged. We contacted the placer, only becuase we know them and had just
seen them at the gathering. Now, if anyone else goes after that box, by
your words, it's ok, they at least figured upt the clues, correct?
>
>You may wonder just how that game is akin to the letterboxing of today?
>The stamp, the log book, the little water-tight container... the
>palpable pieces are actually quite similar. Unfortunately, the
intangibles,
>those things which are truly the heart and spirit of the game, have
>been all but lost and replaced with "letterbox-by-number" style clues,
>easy enough for the average eight-year old to walk right up to the
>box and add another "F" to his count in a matter of a few minutes. And
>since everybody knows that the average eight-year old has much
>better things to do with his time than take short walks to letterboxes that
>no longer exist, today's version of the game has been modified to
>provide players with up-to-date status information of boxes, thus making
>it easier to determine which set of directions will give the best
>chance of rewarding a player with an "F".
>
I'll say this much on this last part and please do not take offense at my
words, they are not intended to be sarcastic or mean, they are, after all,
only words. I'm sure my first boxes are going to be easy. I'm not as
skilled as other folks are. But I will be and I will gladly read posts that
say that they searched for hours and couldn't find it, only to go back and
almost walk over it. We all get better as we pratice. but, before you
condem the abilities of others, please remember that we are a product of the
society that we grew up in. The fellows of Dartmoor back in the late 1800's
thought and acted differently than we do today. Back then, I feel certain
that the majority of damage done to boxes was by animals, not by drunken
teenagers foraging around for a place to have sex at. And no, the
intangables have not been lost, it's just that no one teaches them anymore.
No one teaches new people how to do this sport for the most part... Now a
days, when a new person asks a question, for the most part, other than a
simple welcome to the group message, they then get a "Welll, if you're to
lazy to read the FAQ's, it's not my fault." Truth be known, not many are
teachers nor have that temperment, to deal with the same question, day,
after day, after day, after day. If you don't like the
Letterbox-by-Numbers, then help train the new persons to make it better for
all to enjoy. Providing up to the date status's is, in my NOT so humble
opinion, a good way for someone who's juggling kids, strollers, and limited
time, to best be able to determine if thier time is being speant wisely or
if they should forgo that box till later. And the only person that should
be doing the status of a box is the owner of that box, not some lost person
who couldn't find thier way out of a wet paper bag with a compass and the
other end open.
>
>The "new and improved" version is available now at a location near you
>(and since you are in CT, it is actually waiting just outside your
>front door).
Just to 2.8 cents worth.

Team Rayvenhaus

Hobbies evolve over time. If letterboxing had not evolved, there are a number
of things that are taken for granted as traditional letterboxing that would not
be in use. Some examples:

1) No waterproof plastic boxes. We would be using wood boxes or glass bottles
and dealing with soggy messes.
2) Wood cuts would be used for stamps. No Mastercarve or pink stuff.
3) Holes all over the place. From what I understand, some of the originals
were placed in holes dug into the ground which is mostly not done here in the
States.
4) No LBNA website. We would have to either know someone who knew where a box
was or would have to buy a book.
5) We wouldn't even use stamps! We would be sticking our calling cards into
glass bottles!!!

I am sure that there are people who still do some of the above and there is
nothing to say that they are wrong for doing so. I think it is a good thing
when people keep traditions alive and those of you who believe in a more
traditional way of doing things should keep doing it.

With the evolution of this hobby there will come good (waterproof containers!)
and bad (fill in your pet peeve here) but it will evolve and change no matter
what any one person does. They can only do their best to enjoy the hobby in the
way they like and keep their own traditions alive.

_______________________________________________
California Bear

It was meant to be sarcastic (note the smiley at the end). If you
have a problem with that, then don't read it.

Just my 2 cents (which is worth just that... 2 cents, no more, no
less).

SpringChick


--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Kerjin" wrote:
> *This message was transferred with a trial version of CommuniGate
(tm) Pro*
>
>
> Sorry Springchick, I had to answer a few thiings here, or at least
comment
> on themn. Please don't tkae this as a flame at all...
>
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: SpringChick
> >To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> >Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 3:18 AM
> >Subject: [LbNA] Re: Dart-where?
> >
> >
> >From what I have heard, there is a game played in England,
particularly in
> >Dartmoor National Park, bearing a faint resemblance to the
> >hobby we call letterboxing. It is called... letterboxing!
Seeing as how
> it has
> >actually been around for over a hundred years, technically it
> >is "the original."
> >
>
> It's this type of tongue in cheek that many on this list seem to
take as a
> sarcastic tone of voice. Most everyone should know that this hobby
came
> from Dartmoor, if they don't then I'm sure that someone will point
it out to
> them in a less tongue in cheek manner.
>
> >The primary difference is the mystique. In the crusty, dusty old
rendition
> of
> >the game, just getting your hands on clues to letterboxes was
> >often challenging. Deciphering the sparse, cryptic notations once
you did
> get
> >them, was rarely as easy as 1-2-3, and even after spending
> >weeks/months/years solving a clue, one may journey considerable
distance
> >to the location and find the box no longer in existance. But in
> >such instance, where a player has put significant effort into
solving the
> clue,
> >there is still a great satisfaction, even though there is no box.
> >The reward in this game is mastering the challenge, not
necessarily the
> stamp
> >in the log book. In this version of the game, there is a
> >respect for other players, particularly those who have been
playing the
> game
> >for a while (I guess these would be those that are known
> >today as "oldies"). I know, you are thinking... say it isn't so,
but it
> is!
>
> I've one simple question here, asked in all humility and
deference... how
> does one master the challenge if they can not locate the end, or
the prize,
> or at least a sign that they have in fact, mastered the challenge?
By the
> simple fact that they assume they were correct in the translation?
If
> that's so, then I get the gold and silver buried at the Desprado in
the west
> somewhere becuase I think I've gotten that muystery all figured
out. Oh,
> wait... That's right... If I do figure it out, I DO get all the
gold and
> silver buried there. Here, if someone or something vandalizes a
box and I
> drive 3+ hours, as I will be this Wed, to get to the location,
that's too
> bad, it's all a part of the sport, right? 3 hours of wear and tear
on my
> car, the gas and food I speant money on to get there and all for
what? So I
> could prove I was able to decipher the clues correctly, I think?
I'm not
> asking for big bright neon signs, pointing like fingers of god at
the
> location of the box. Nor am I asking for clues that say, "Walk up
to the
> ranger station and ask for the stamp." either. But I am asking for
someway
> of indicating that the box is in trouble or at least suspected of
being so.
> I went on the 9th to Tumwater Falls here in Washington State and we
came
> across a box that had been vandalized and the stump it was in
severly
> damaged. We contacted the placer, only becuase we know them and
had just
> seen them at the gathering. Now, if anyone else goes after that
box, by
> your words, it's ok, they at least figured upt the clues, correct?
> >
> >You may wonder just how that game is akin to the letterboxing of
today?
> >The stamp, the log book, the little water-tight container... the
> >palpable pieces are actually quite similar. Unfortunately, the
> intangibles,
> >those things which are truly the heart and spirit of the game, have
> >been all but lost and replaced with "letterbox-by-number" style
clues,
> >easy enough for the average eight-year old to walk right up to the
> >box and add another "F" to his count in a matter of a few
minutes. And
> >since everybody knows that the average eight-year old has much
> >better things to do with his time than take short walks to
letterboxes that
> >no longer exist, today's version of the game has been modified to
> >provide players with up-to-date status information of boxes, thus
making
> >it easier to determine which set of directions will give the best
> >chance of rewarding a player with an "F".
> >
> I'll say this much on this last part and please do not take offense
at my
> words, they are not intended to be sarcastic or mean, they are,
after all,
> only words. I'm sure my first boxes are going to be easy. I'm not
as
> skilled as other folks are. But I will be and I will gladly read
posts that
> say that they searched for hours and couldn't find it, only to go
back and
> almost walk over it. We all get better as we pratice. but, before
you
> condem the abilities of others, please remember that we are a
product of the
> society that we grew up in. The fellows of Dartmoor back in the
late 1800's
> thought and acted differently than we do today. Back then, I feel
certain
> that the majority of damage done to boxes was by animals, not by
drunken
> teenagers foraging around for a place to have sex at. And no, the
> intangables have not been lost, it's just that no one teaches them
anymore.
> No one teaches new people how to do this sport for the most part...
Now a
> days, when a new person asks a question, for the most part, other
than a
> simple welcome to the group message, they then get a "Welll, if
you're to
> lazy to read the FAQ's, it's not my fault." Truth be known, not
many are
> teachers nor have that temperment, to deal with the same question,
day,
> after day, after day, after day. If you don't like the
> Letterbox-by-Numbers, then help train the new persons to make it
better for
> all to enjoy. Providing up to the date status's is, in my NOT so
humble
> opinion, a good way for someone who's juggling kids, strollers, and
limited
> time, to best be able to determine if thier time is being speant
wisely or
> if they should forgo that box till later. And the only person that
should
> be doing the status of a box is the owner of that box, not some
lost person
> who couldn't find thier way out of a wet paper bag with a compass
and the
> other end open.
> >
> >The "new and improved" version is available now at a location near
you
> >(and since you are in CT, it is actually waiting just outside your
> >front door).
> Just to 2.8 cents worth.
>
> Team Rayvenhaus

I didn't have a problem with that, why do you think I did? I merely attempted to ensure that you did not take offense at my words, that's all. If you have a problem with that, then perhaps we could meet offlist and discuss that? I was adding my 2 cents worth, as you did as well.

(smiles)

Team Rayvenhaus
----- Original Message -----
From: SpringChick
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 8:26 AM
Subject: [LbNA] Re: Dart-where?


*This message was transferred with a trial version of CommuniGate(tm) Pro* It was meant to be sarcastic (note the smiley at the end). If you
have a problem with that, then don't read it.

Just my 2 cents (which is worth just that... 2 cents, no more, no
less).

SpringChick


--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Kerjin" wrote:
> *This message was transferred with a trial version of CommuniGate
(tm) Pro*
>
>
> Sorry Springchick, I had to answer a few thiings here, or at least
comment
> on themn. Please don't tkae this as a flame at all...
>
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: SpringChick
> >To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> >Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 3:18 AM
> >Subject: [LbNA] Re: Dart-where?
> >
> >
> >From what I have heard, there is a game played in England,
particularly in
> >Dartmoor National Park, bearing a faint resemblance to the
> >hobby we call letterboxing. It is called... letterboxing!
Seeing as how
> it has
> >actually been around for over a hundred years, technically it
> >is "the original."
> >
>
> It's this type of tongue in cheek that many on this list seem to
take as a
> sarcastic tone of voice. Most everyone should know that this hobby
came
> from Dartmoor, if they don't then I'm sure that someone will point
it out to
> them in a less tongue in cheek manner.
>
> >The primary difference is the mystique. In the crusty, dusty old
rendition
> of
> >the game, just getting your hands on clues to letterboxes was
> >often challenging. Deciphering the sparse, cryptic notations once
you did
> get
> >them, was rarely as easy as 1-2-3, and even after spending
> >weeks/months/years solving a clue, one may journey considerable
distance
> >to the location and find the box no longer in existance. But in
> >such instance, where a player has put significant effort into
solving the
> clue,
> >there is still a great satisfaction, even though there is no box.
> >The reward in this game is mastering the challenge, not
necessarily the
> stamp
> >in the log book. In this version of the game, there is a
> >respect for other players, particularly those who have been
playing the
> game
> >for a while (I guess these would be those that are known
> >today as "oldies"). I know, you are thinking... say it isn't so,
but it
> is!
>
> I've one simple question here, asked in all humility and
deference... how
> does one master the challenge if they can not locate the end, or
the prize,
> or at least a sign that they have in fact, mastered the challenge?
By the
> simple fact that they assume they were correct in the translation?
If
> that's so, then I get the gold and silver buried at the Desprado in
the west
> somewhere becuase I think I've gotten that muystery all figured
out. Oh,
> wait... That's right... If I do figure it out, I DO get all the
gold and
> silver buried there. Here, if someone or something vandalizes a
box and I
> drive 3+ hours, as I will be this Wed, to get to the location,
that's too
> bad, it's all a part of the sport, right? 3 hours of wear and tear
on my
> car, the gas and food I speant money on to get there and all for
what? So I
> could prove I was able to decipher the clues correctly, I think?
I'm not
> asking for big bright neon signs, pointing like fingers of god at
the
> location of the box. Nor am I asking for clues that say, "Walk up
to the
> ranger station and ask for the stamp." either. But I am asking for
someway
> of indicating that the box is in trouble or at least suspected of
being so.
> I went on the 9th to Tumwater Falls here in Washington State and we
came
> across a box that had been vandalized and the stump it was in
severly
> damaged. We contacted the placer, only becuase we know them and
had just
> seen them at the gathering. Now, if anyone else goes after that
box, by
> your words, it's ok, they at least figured upt the clues, correct?
> >
> >You may wonder just how that game is akin to the letterboxing of
today?
> >The stamp, the log book, the little water-tight container... the
> >palpable pieces are actually quite similar. Unfortunately, the
> intangibles,
> >those things which are truly the heart and spirit of the game, have
> >been all but lost and replaced with "letterbox-by-number" style
clues,
> >easy enough for the average eight-year old to walk right up to the
> >box and add another "F" to his count in a matter of a few
minutes. And
> >since everybody knows that the average eight-year old has much
> >better things to do with his time than take short walks to
letterboxes that
> >no longer exist, today's version of the game has been modified to
> >provide players with up-to-date status information of boxes, thus
making
> >it easier to determine which set of directions will give the best
> >chance of rewarding a player with an "F".
> >
> I'll say this much on this last part and please do not take offense
at my
> words, they are not intended to be sarcastic or mean, they are,
after all,
> only words. I'm sure my first boxes are going to be easy. I'm not
as
> skilled as other folks are. But I will be and I will gladly read
posts that
> say that they searched for hours and couldn't find it, only to go
back and
> almost walk over it. We all get better as we pratice. but, before
you
> condem the abilities of others, please remember that we are a
product of the
> society that we grew up in. The fellows of Dartmoor back in the
late 1800's
> thought and acted differently than we do today. Back then, I feel
certain
> that the majority of damage done to boxes was by animals, not by
drunken
> teenagers foraging around for a place to have sex at. And no, the
> intangables have not been lost, it's just that no one teaches them
anymore.
> No one teaches new people how to do this sport for the most part...
Now a
> days, when a new person asks a question, for the most part, other
than a
> simple welcome to the group message, they then get a "Welll, if
you're to
> lazy to read the FAQ's, it's not my fault." Truth be known, not
many are
> teachers nor have that temperment, to deal with the same question,
day,
> after day, after day, after day. If you don't like the
> Letterbox-by-Numbers, then help train the new persons to make it
better for
> all to enjoy. Providing up to the date status's is, in my NOT so
humble
> opinion, a good way for someone who's juggling kids, strollers, and
limited
> time, to best be able to determine if thier time is being speant
wisely or
> if they should forgo that box till later. And the only person that
should
> be doing the status of a box is the owner of that box, not some
lost person
> who couldn't find thier way out of a wet paper bag with a compass
and the
> other end open.
> >
> >The "new and improved" version is available now at a location near
you
> >(and since you are in CT, it is actually waiting just outside your
> >front door).
> Just to 2.8 cents worth.
>
> Team Rayvenhaus


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Biting tongue, but had to say it:

Couple of thoughts prefaced by my personal opinion that I am 100% on
board with Jay, Spring Chick and Alafair on this. We've got only 17
placed and I'd not like to see any on the database.

Please keep in mind that there are MANY bonus boxes out there, many
mysteries, many cuckoo clues, and many non-published clues. There's
ways to let folks know you've obtained them; example being that I
mentioned last week we had solved Ray's Dilemma. I did not mention
the other boxes we found that day because I'm NOT about to give up
the location of this box and (if there were other's near it) any
nearby boxes.

If you're soooooo concerned about vandalized boxes then start
promoting personal websites and better upkeep and monitoring of
boxes. Using Jay Drew as an example - look at his website. There's
plenty of boxes on there that are missing and he updates that they
are, indeed, missing. Thats the way things ought to be done. Should I
find out a box of mine is missing or vandalized; I'll gladly post it
on my web page as missing, reported missing but not confirmed, etc.

My true fear is someone posting on the database that they found XYZ
Bonus at the Flabberjabber Box in East Whateveryacallit, Connecticut
on a certain day....and spoiling it for the rest of us. I've spent 8
months trying to crack certain mysteries, gotten 1/2 done and hit a
roadblock and needed a hint to pass the bump. Those boxes are the
stamps I treasure most. I've also sat down with other boxers and
discussed and hashed out locations before. It is indeed satisfying.


I think if I were driving 3 hours for one box...I'd make sure i knew
of others in the area so I didn't do it all for naught. I'd also do
some reseach through the archives and see who found it last, etc.

-Steve

Can I chime in here?

Without meaning to disrespect anyone else's opinion so far expressed, I'd like to comment first on this:

----- Original Message -----
From: kokopelli02892
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 10:55 AM
Subject: [LbNA] Re: Dart-where?


Jay's opinion has always held great weight for me and for good reason.

I feel that the database is a serious breach of letterboxing etiquette. It undermines the personal responsibility of the placer of the box. So what if a placer never checks it again. It's out there for your enjoyment, or is it? ;). Isn't that the fun of it?

Laurette

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Drew Family"
wrote:
> re the yahoogroup database: I really don't like it and have worked for years to keep that kind of geocaching style reporting off the LbNA site.
>
> Is there a way to opt out of having our own letterboxes tracked
there?


I, too, put much weight in Jay's opinion, not just because he was a LB pioneer in the US, but because I have corresponded with him and met him personally at a gathering. I like him and respect him. I think he has a great head on his shoulders and I don't detect even the slightest bit of anything negative about him and his desire to keep his boxes off the database. He has his reasons and I will try my best to refrain from ever posting anything about his boxes other than that I found it or didn't, and I'll do so here on the list, or write to him personally. It's a fair request.

Next,

I haven't checked out the database and I'm not sure how wisely it will be used. That's always a risk when you opt for a least-restrictive environment; you have to really on the good judgment of others and it may not turn be very good, in your own opinion. I'm very much in the "we don't need more rules" camp, but probably because I think my *own* set of rules for myself are really quite okay, and I trust that if I step on toes I'd be politely informed of my transgressions, and forgiven if I don't cop an attitude.

For the most part, I'd treat any other placer the same as I would Jay, Wanda and Pete, Trish, etc., and only post that I failed to find a box or that it was damaged, etc. If a posting doesn't get a heads-up response from either the placer or another boxer, then I'll try to contact the placer off the list. What I mean by a response from another boxer is a "me, too" or
possibly a "hey, we already talked about that one on list and it's been..." And why I listed those particular placers is not only because I have gone after many of their boxes and they are local to me. Even before I personally met any of them at a gathering, I felt the same way: they have been doing this much longer and way better than I have, so they are not only deserving of common courtesy but deserving of my respect and consideration as veterans and mentors.

:-)

The thing is, letterboxing is growing at an astounding rate, mostly due to published articles in magazines with a huge readership. It worries me. When I first was told about LBing, it was in a tete-a-tete email with Ben of RIBNAG. I was actually flattered that he considered me worthy of knowing about the sport. From the beginning I felt that there was a trust required, that we all had to be coming from the same place as far as intention and attitude. I was extremely selective about who I "let in" on it.

Now things are much more open and I've told people that I don't know *really* well about LBing, but if it seems to pique their interest, I do try to express that it's important to respect the desire of the placers as well as respect the environment. I don't know how well that respect and concern for other boxers and the outdoors is conveyed through magazine and newspaper articles. I'm not assuming that everyone that hears about LBing in a non-personal way will spoil it, but I cannot assume that they won't.

I can't assume that the database will take away the secretive allure of boxing or spoil others' fun, but I can't assume that it won't. I can certainly appreciate Mahjong's intention and I respect the opinion of those, such as Phyto of Maine, who feel the need of the database. My opinion, as with everything related to letterboxing is HANDLE WITH CARE. Please respect the placer of the boxes and try not to post anything they would not want others to read. Err to the side of caution, please.

Mary (RI)
~Maybe an old curmudgeon but I consider myself a babe in the woods.~
No, not a hot babe! I meant ... oh, forget it...! Let's say, a cadet? Not quite a recruit, but pretty low in the ranks of that pecking order we seem to perceive around here.
See why I don't use tag lines?!?!?! ;-)



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:::ahem:::

EXCUSE ME!

May I say that you both have done an excellent job expressing your views, sometimes with humor, sometimes not, but posts from both of you ring loud and clear and shine with your own unique personalities.

I only wish that I possessed the writing skills that both of you have. Thanks for remaining civil.

Mary (RI)
----- Original Message -----
From: Kerjin
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: [LbNA] Re: Dart-where?




I didn't have a problem with that, why do you think I did? I merely attempted to ensure that you did not take offense at my words, that's all. If you have a problem with that, then perhaps we could meet offlist and discuss that? I was adding my 2 cents worth, as you did as well.

(smiles)

Team Rayvenhaus
----- Original Message -----
From: SpringChick
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 8:26 AM
Subject: [LbNA] Re: Dart-where?


*This message was transferred with a trial version of CommuniGate(tm) Pro* It was meant to be sarcastic (note the smiley at the end). If you
have a problem with that, then don't read it.

Just my 2 cents (which is worth just that... 2 cents, no more, no
less).

SpringChick


--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Kerjin" wrote:
> *This message was transferred with a trial version of CommuniGate
(tm) Pro*
>
>
> Sorry Springchick, I had to answer a few thiings here, or at least
comment
> on themn. Please don't tkae this as a flame at all...
>
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: SpringChick
> >To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> >Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 3:18 AM
> >Subject: [LbNA] Re: Dart-where?
> >
> >
> >From what I have heard, there is a game played in England,
particularly in
> >Dartmoor National Park, bearing a faint resemblance to the
> >hobby we call letterboxing. It is called... letterboxing!
Seeing as how
> it has
> >actually been around for over a hundred years, technically it
> >is "the original."




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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

We only have a few boxes, but PLEASE keep them off the Data Base.

Patrick and Amy


--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Drew Family"
wrote:
> re the yahoogroup database: I really don't like it and have worked
> for years to keep that kind of geocaching style reporting off the
> LbNA site.
>
> Is there a way to opt out of having our own letterboxes tracked
there?
>
> Jay, an old-school curmudgeon in CT

I'm confused. I got one of your HH's this past spring and it
requested that if found please let you know. I know a traveling HH is
different than a placed box. OR is it? You want to know the status of
your HH, but not the status of the other! Why the separation?
I'll respect your wishes, 'cause it's not likely I'll find a
Drewclan box.
Psychomommy


--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Drew Family"
wrote:
> re the yahoogroup database: I really don't like it and have worked
> for years to keep that kind of geocaching style reporting off the
> LbNA site.
>
> Is there a way to opt out of having our own letterboxes tracked
there?
>
> Jay, an old-school curmudgeon in CT

Jay, you're not an old curmudgeon in my book. I'll respect your
wishes and if I ever am lucky enough to find any of your HH or boxes
I'll respect your wishes. And that goes for any one else who does not
want their boxes listed. My computer has "stickies" post-it type
notes that I use and I'm starting a "do not list" list today.
:-)
catbead

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Drew Family" wrote:
> re the yahoogroup database: I really don't like it and have worked
> for years to keep that kind of geocaching style reporting off the
> LbNA site.
>
> Is there a way to opt out of having our own letterboxes tracked there?
>
> Jay, an old-school curmudgeon in CT

Not to speak for Jay -- but I think there's a huge difference between
Jay knowing the status of one of HIS boxes....and the status being
broadcast across 42 countries in 17 languages for everyone to find.

Again, emails are a beautiful thing and if you question a certain box
being at all of "hush-hush" origination, use the personal email and
ask before you post about it.

Does that make sense?

-Steve

> I'm confused. I got one of your HH's this past spring and it
> requested that if found please let you know. I know a traveling HH
is
> different than a placed box. OR is it? You want to know the status
of
> your HH, but not the status of the other! Why the separation?
> I'll respect your wishes, 'cause it's not likely I'll find a
> Drewclan box.
> Psychomommy

Evening! Haven't read the list since this morning (darned work always
getting in the way of funnin'), so these same points may have been
made, and better said, many times over, and it's probably not very
nice manners to post without catching up on the mail, but...

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Pam Kleingers"
wrote:
> Jay,
>
> Would you mind explaining why you don't like it? I am not seasoned
enough to
> know the finer points yet.

Thanks for asking! Well, it's not my place to say "do it this way,"
or "don't play like that," but to me having a database of comments
written about certain letterboxes detracts from the enjoyment. There
_could_ be a sense of mystery and intrigue associated with
letterboxing. The graphics of the LbNA website are intended to
promote that atmosphere, anyway.

1) I think most MIA reports are wrong. I used to track
incorrect "it's missing" notes in my PFX count. I stopped when I
could statistically say that I was getting 13 mistaken MIAs for every
true, confirmable one. While I think the missing reports I've been
getting recently are more accurate, I think a database of MIA reports
does an injustice to letterboxing in general.

I think that the authors of letterboxes create a magical and distinct
experience. So someone else's comments alluding to "that massive mud
pit" or "her distances are way off," while perhaps useful to the next
person coming along, may not be welcomed by the one who's creativity
went into it in the first place.

2) Do we really need it? Everyone now has the capability to instantly
update their clues with status stuff. You could even have a little
section where you clip in the comments other people make on the big
group (or your local group, or off-line...we have had a section like
that on our own website for years).

Like you all, I'm also a consumer of this info: while planning for a
recent trip I was very thankful for the conscientious way some people
kept their clues up to date. Some even had "last found on" with
specific dates. Nice. And it was done by the authors.

3) The yahoogroup database is there, and it's sort of free, but it's
not a very good one. It's clunky. You can't query it intelligently
(ie, I can't pull info on JeLyBean letterboxes in New York), and it
doesn't handle longer comments easily (all fields are the same size).
It looks like it would take a complex and arcane secret shorthand to
work. The couple hundred records in there now are arranged
alphabetically by letterbox name, and I can see 10 or 15 at a time.
Even with my cranky dial-up, it only takes a couple of minutes to
scroll through them all, but if I edit a record starting with M, when
I'm done the database returns me to square one at A. It's not a very
good base to build data on.

So, even though there has long been demand from the letterboxing
community for clear cut status reports, there isn't a function like
this on the LbNA site. Ever wonder why? In part, it is because the
founders of letterboxing didn't think it fit well with the milieu.
That doesn't mean you can't go ahead and create it. Mischief's
Washington site has a status function that is well recieved by the
PNW folks. Pete & Wanda will track your hitch hikers for you while
LbNA won't. Perhaps someone someday will program a better mousetrap:
like the letterboxes I place, I don't think this central LbNA website
will last forever.

Hope this helps, Jay

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Drew Family"
wrote: Perhaps someone someday will program a better mousetrap:
> like the letterboxes I place, I don't think this central LbNA website
> will last forever.

...This sounds like a true hunt of the most cunning devices. Thanks
for reminding us that there is so much more to life than the
cyberworld. I am grateful for those who have invested time into this,
but now in my own ways- it's time to give back to this by placing boxes.

...the game continues,
Phyto

I know it would be an extra step to remember, but if the database is here to stay, and any of you do not want your boxes listed, then maybe that could be mentioned at the beginning or end of your clues. Just an idea. I'd honor it if I knew who minded and who did not.

Debean

ehughes52 wrote:
Jay, you're not an old curmudgeon in my book. I'll respect your
wishes and if I ever am lucky enough to find any of your HH or boxes
I'll respect your wishes. And that goes for any one else who does not
want their boxes listed. My computer has "stickies" post-it type
notes that I use and I'm starting a "do not list" list today.
:-)
catbead

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Drew Family" wrote:
> re the yahoogroup database: I really don't like it and have worked
> for years to keep that kind of geocaching style reporting off the
> LbNA site.
>
> Is there a way to opt out of having our own letterboxes tracked there?
>
> Jay, an old-school curmudgeon in CT


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "SpringChick"
wrote:
> From what I have heard, there is a game played in England,
> particularly in Dartmoor National Park, bearing a faint resemblance
> to the hobby we call letterboxing. It is called... letterboxing!
> Seeing as how it has actually been around for over a hundred years,
> technically it is "the original."



I'm keeping my dog on a real short leash, because I don't want him in
this database race, but I do feel compelled to comment on the
specific issue you present here, SpringChick.

I comprehend your concern about changes you see taking place in the
nature of letterboxing. To some extent, I sympathise with you, as
well. But, I also look at the realities of the transition of this
pastime from England to the U.S., and I cannot wonder -- or even be
particularly surprised -- at the changes that have occured.

The game, as you point out, originated in the Dartmoor National Park,
in the U.K. This park has 368 square miles of letterbox hiding places
and a participant group that developed slowly and mostly by word-of-
mouth and person-to-person teaching. That park is almost exactly the
same size as Middlesex County, CT (where, as we all know, one has
only to walk out one's door to trip over a letterbox, no clue
required) which has 369 square miles. The entire state of Connecticut
has almost 4,000 square miles, and the United States, the ground on
which *we* play this game, has over 3.7 *million* square miles.

The "rules" which you justly lament are workable for a contained area
with a knowledgeable player population, but they do not translate
well to a country ten *thousand* times that size. It would be nice if
they did, but they don't. They can't. And, added to that, the player
population in the U.S. is created by word-of-mouth, yes, but also by
media outlets and by the internet. The sheer numbers of participants
is staggering! (As is, speaking for many of us newbies, our ignorance
of the etiquette.) And, there's no way that those players can ever
come even close to knowing their "field of play" the way U.K. players
can know Dartmoor--as if it were the back of their own hand.