Adrian wrote:

> Typical we start it and the yanks take over

Gee thanks Adrian.

I went to considerable time and some expense to do this on a volunteer
basis for the group, at the request of others who wanted it, because
I knew how to do it. If people feel this way, make your feelings
known beforehand next time please. I stated about 6 weeks ago that
I was doing this. Also please don't ever refer to me as a "yank",
or any other cultural, ethnic, or racial term; I personally do not
appreciate it in any circumstances, and even less so when it is
inaccurate.

If people would like me to remove the DNS entry for www.letterboxing.org,
I'd be more than happy to; please let me know. BTW, I personally have no
intention to "take over" anything, and really believed I was contributing
something positive, and had set up a server that had the potential to
contribute more positives later.

The only thing I ever asked for in return for the time and expense of
doing this was a stamp carving starter kit, and that request was not even
*responded* to. I think I'll be finding even less time for letterboxing;
it has been nothing but stressful for me since I became involved :-)

Thx
Randy
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free Web-based e-mail groups -- http://www.eGroups.com

I am glad to hear that the www.letterboxing.org url is up and working. Having
an easy-to-remember internet address will certainly be a benefit to the hobby.

As you all know, I have taken several opportunities to brag about the
dedicated group of people who have been working together to get this new hobby
started. This talk list, the Letterbox USA website, and all the great ideas
and new letterboxes that have come out of this group are the result of people
from all over the country contributing their individual talents and spare time
in order to help everyone involved in the hobby.

I wish to point out that Randy has been a key person on this list of
volunteers who have made these nice things happen. His technical advice has
been instrumental in helping Daniel and myself to work the bugs out of the web
site and talk list. Randy has also been an active member of the group of
American letterboxing patriots that has refused to sit quietly and watch
commercialism and technology spoil the original charm and intrigue of
Letterboxing.

I would be very disappointed if remarks like Adrian's were to finally push
Randy to lose interest in the hobby. A quick scan of the talk list archives
will clearly show that while Adrian has offered us some facsinating insights
about the birthplace of letterboxing, his contributions to the talk list have
largely consisted of sour, disgruntled jabs concerning the introduction of the
hobby to people outside of Dartmoor. He also states that he regrets his
involvement with Smithsonian magazine. I, for one, am grateful for Adrian's
contributions, but we must understand that greater exposure could endanger the
hobby in his country, and he feels threatened and angry. So please take his
words with a grain of salt and don't let it get personal.

If we are to find something useful in Adrian's words, it is the notion that
Dartmoor does not require our services to survive. The hobby is well-
established there, and is not in need of promotion. It is a small area with a
fragile terrain and tens of thousands of letterboxes. Our situation here is
very different. We have declared the entire nation as the stage for our
endeavors, and have barely begun to establish ourselves. The internet is the
only medium that could have allowed us to accomplish what we have, so far.
But we need only worry about ourselves. The rest of the world will get along
fine without our assistance.

Meanwhile, back in the States, communication is the backbone of our hobby. I
think the new options that Randy has offered our group are very promising. As
far as the talk list is concerned, my opinion is "If it's not broke, don't fix
it." It was very confusing for a while as the group migrated from the ILC
talk list to the L-USA list. I don't think we will be doing ourselves any
favors by making another switch like that. But memorable email aliases for
requesting info, etc. would be a nice benefit just as the new url will be.

Thank you, Randy, for your contributions. I guess I missed the bit about the
letterboxing kit request, but let me state for the record that I would be more
than happy to make up a letterboxing kit to get you started. Send me your
address privately and I will send you everything you need.

For that matter, if anyone else on the list has gotten stuck trying to locate
everything needed to put together their first letterbox, let me know. We'll
work something out.

A fellow volunteer,
Mitch Klink, Portland, OR


In a message dated 12/11/98 2:39:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, malenkai@bee.net
writes:

> Adrian wrote:
>
> > Typical we start it and the yanks take over
>
> Gee thanks Adrian.
>
> I went to considerable time and some expense to do this on a volunteer
> basis for the group, at the request of others who wanted it, because
> I knew how to do it. If people feel this way, make your feelings
> known beforehand next time please. I stated about 6 weeks ago that
> I was doing this. Also please don't ever refer to me as a "yank",
> or any other cultural, ethnic, or racial term; I personally do not
> appreciate it in any circumstances, and even less so when it is
> inaccurate.
>
> If people would like me to remove the DNS entry for www.letterboxing.org,
> I'd be more than happy to; please let me know. BTW, I personally have no
> intention to "take over" anything, and really believed I was contributing
> something positive, and had set up a server that had the potential to
> contribute more positives later.
>
> The only thing I ever asked for in return for the time and expense of
> doing this was a stamp carving starter kit, and that request was not even
> *responded* to. I think I'll be finding even less time for letterboxing;
> it has been nothing but stressful for me since I became involved :-)
>
> Thx
> Randy


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Randy Hall
> To: letterbox-usa@egroups.com
> Date: Friday, December 11, 1998 6:38 AM
> Subject: [L-USA] www.letterboxing.org
>
>
> www.letterboxing.org now points to Dan's site. For now, all
> this really means is that this url can be put on information
> sheets that may be placed in letterboxes (I'll be doing this)
> or used as links on other web sites or promotional material
> with the reasonable expectation that it will always lead to
> information on non-commerical letterboxing (for those who don't
> know, .com is traditionally used for for-profit enterprises,
> while .org is generally used for non-profit purposes). In
> reality, I'll prolly point it to where ever we decide as a group
> it makes sense to point it (or develop a website under it),
> and if Dan's site moves to another ISP, this url can still be
> used to find it. I'll also prolly put it in the search engines
> some day.
>
> Of course, if the hobby takes off in serveral countries, it prolly
> makes sense to use the letterboxing.org domain as an umbrella for
> all the countries' sites, and use a sub-domain like
> us.letterboxing.org to point to Dan's site (this is the way the
> international orienteering federation does it; it is also something
> that prolly does not have to be worried about for decades).
>
> As for things that can be done in the future, I could host the
> mailing list, a chat server, or provide e-mail aliases such as
> info@letterboxing.org, etc. The main pro to hosting the mailing list
> at letterboxing.org is getting rid of that annoying spam and images
> at the bottom of the messages that egroups puts on there, the main
> con is that it would most likely be slower (it would be about the
> same speed as Dr. Ming's list). I don't really care one way or the
> other about doing this, or providing other @letterboxing.org services;
> whatever people want, within limits of my time and capacity. As has
> been said before, I'd rather spend my time on actual letterboxing,
> once things are running smoothly.
>
> If this url doesn't work, its prolly because I'm tinkering with the
> server, DNS has not propagated through the 'net, or you are using an
> old browser that does not support HTTP v1.1 (all modern browsers do).
> If you have any problems fetching this url, and care, let me know :-)
>
> randy
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free Web-based e-mail groups -- http://www.eGroups.com

To Randy and Adrian
and the rest of my letterboxing friends...

First, about "letterboxing.org"...
I take full responsibility for initiating the procurement of this
domain name. I was VERY concerned, during the rather rancorous and
painfull exchanges that occurred late this summer (relating to the
"commercialism" of letterboxing) that someone else would 'claim' the
name and thus control its usage. So I floated the idea of getting it to
a few people within the group whom I thought to be both agressively
interested in the growth of letterboxing, and, who I felt to be squarely
on the 'keep it free' side of the fence. Randy offered to take it upon
himself to obtain it, with, I am absolutely convinced, no personal
ulterior motive except to preserve availability of this name for all of
us.

I find it hard, when telling someone where to go on the 'net to look up
letterboxing, to remember Dan's exact address, and so I am sure, a
potential "newbie" might also find it difficult. "Letterboxing.COM" is
so easy to remember. Well, dang it, so is "letterboxing.ORG", and I for
one am thrilled that 'we' (meaning, ALL OF US) now have that
convenience, thanks to Randy's efforts (and expenses, I must add).

Personally, I don't feel that "Letterboxing.org" should necessarily be
"owned" for the sole use of US letterboxers. Dartmoor has a long
letterboxing tradition; we in the US are trying hard to get it going
here, and the Letterboxing USA page is a vehicle to promote this. I for
one would encourage links to as many Dartmoor-related pages as possible,
as well as links to letterboxers, say, in Canada or anyplace else.

Given the long history, popularity, and sheer multitude of letterboxes
in Dartmoor, I doubt if we in the US could ever come close to "taking it
over", as recently suggested by Adrian. But, we do need the web to grow
the hobby here; use of "letterboxing.org" is valuable tool.

By the way, I feel that we ALL owe Adrian (and several others) a vote
of thanks for being willing to be part of the famous Smithsonian
article. Given the nature (as I perceive it) of clue-sharing in
Dartmoor, I sense that some Dartmoor devotees may have a protective,
almost secretive, feeling about 'their' hobby. If so, Adrian may have
been risking the disdain of some by "coming out", so to speak, in an
internationally-published magazine. Yet, without that article, none of
this would have happened. So, thanks Adrian.

Lots of individuals, in many different ways, have gotten this thing
going. Please, lets keep it positive.

Erik Davis

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free Web-based e-mail groups -- http://www.eGroups.com

Randy:
Very sorry about this stressful twist. I appreciate what you've done.
And, sorry about the delay in sending you some stuff - life has been
stressful here as well (altho not from letterboxing).

Funny thing, all the items are in a pile and ready to go, and have been
for a while. Well, tomorrow morning, I promise......

Keep smiling...
Erik


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free Web-based e-mail groups -- http://www.eGroups.com

First, thanks for positive public and private comments. I never
really wanted anything for setting up the domain other than to be
spared negative comments. I was quite taken aback. I could write
quite a bit on ethnic characterizations and terms, but will not.

About the stamp carving kit, people did not see the message because
it was a private matter relating to letterboxing.org, and it was wrong
of me to bring it up in public. I was frustrated. Basically, people
asked to pay part of my costs ($120), and I said send me a stamp carving
starter kit instead, which I assumed would cost much less, but provide
more value, sort of an I'll give you my expertese, and you give me yours
sort of thing. I never heard back and drew the wrong conclusion. Thanks
for all the offers of a kit.

I've been to Dartmoor, and I agree with Mitch that this is not Dartmoor,
and happen to also agree that the internet is an ideal (but not exclusive)
medium for development of the hobby outside of Dartmoor. If people
from Dartmoor (or elsewhere) resent the hobby being developed outside that
area, I don't know what to say, other than I've never met a Swede who
resented recreational orienteering being developed outside of Sweden, or
an American resenting baseball being played in Asia or Central America.
The Swedes still dominate orienteering, and America still dominates
baseball, and I'm sure Dartmoor shall always retain its cache and mistique
in the letterboxing world. I really don't care which group or place
dominates any of these pastimes; it costs nothing to share an idea with
another person or culture, and usually both sides are inriched.

As for uses of the letterboxing.org server, I truly do not care. I am
not pushing to have the mailing list moved there, or pushing any other
uses. As I said, I would prefer not to use the egroups list because
I do not like slow graphics and other advertising attached to my e-mail.
There is no other motivation, and if people are content with the egroups
list, fine.

Hopefully this whole matter will not provide further diversion :-)

Randy
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free Web-based e-mail groups -- http://www.eGroups.com