Aahz,
I'm so very sorry that your attempt to bring fresh, creative ideas
into letterboxing upset some people. I love it when people are
creative and innovative, and it saddens me to think that your attempts
to liven up letterboxing in your area met with a negative response.
Lisascenic
what?
7 messages in this thread |
Started on 2006-05-09
what?
From: Lisa Lazar (lazar.bauer@earthlink.net) |
Date: 2006-05-09 20:45:30 UTC
Re: [LbNCA] what?
From: Eclipse (eclipse@tuliphead.com) |
Date: 2006-05-09 14:00:13 UTC-07:00
Aahz,
I'm fairly new to this list but had to pipe up after seeing your mail -
I have to say - I didn't see any negative feedback on the idea here in the
LbNCA list, and in fact, was thinking about planting in SC myself on that
day (I work down here, but live in SF).
I will say that I have run into, occasionally, a bit of what could be
called elitism when it comes to some other LB communities, in the sense
that there are those who have been at it for a long time who seem to feel
that their opinions or suggestions weigh more than those of us who are
relatively new to the hobby, which can have the effect of crushing others'
enthusiasm. This can certainly be a disappointing attitude to run into;
I've always had the impression that LB is a hobby/sport with few real
"rules" beyond the basic expectations.
So, to that I say: don't let anyone else tell you what you can and can't
do. If you want to encourage locals to plant on that day, and if you want
to hand out prizes for it and make an event out of it, go for it! To the
wet blankets who feel the need to actively naysay such an event, go your
own way, do what you wanna do - but don't quash the enthusiasm of others.
That's just boorish.
Aahz, I know SF is a bit of a trek from down here (the commute is
killer!), but I hope you'll come to SF to find some of the lovely boxes
planted up there. And I hope you'll plant boxes down here, too, because
I'm nearly done with SF myself, and the East Bay/Peninsula/South Bay is my
next set of target areas. I'd love to find some boxes planted by the
enthusiastic Team Aahz!
- Eclipse (hoping to make it over to the Great Mall after work sometime
soon...)
--
eclipse@tuliphead.com / barbara reece
nihil declaro.
I'm fairly new to this list but had to pipe up after seeing your mail -
I have to say - I didn't see any negative feedback on the idea here in the
LbNCA list, and in fact, was thinking about planting in SC myself on that
day (I work down here, but live in SF).
I will say that I have run into, occasionally, a bit of what could be
called elitism when it comes to some other LB communities, in the sense
that there are those who have been at it for a long time who seem to feel
that their opinions or suggestions weigh more than those of us who are
relatively new to the hobby, which can have the effect of crushing others'
enthusiasm. This can certainly be a disappointing attitude to run into;
I've always had the impression that LB is a hobby/sport with few real
"rules" beyond the basic expectations.
So, to that I say: don't let anyone else tell you what you can and can't
do. If you want to encourage locals to plant on that day, and if you want
to hand out prizes for it and make an event out of it, go for it! To the
wet blankets who feel the need to actively naysay such an event, go your
own way, do what you wanna do - but don't quash the enthusiasm of others.
That's just boorish.
Aahz, I know SF is a bit of a trek from down here (the commute is
killer!), but I hope you'll come to SF to find some of the lovely boxes
planted up there. And I hope you'll plant boxes down here, too, because
I'm nearly done with SF myself, and the East Bay/Peninsula/South Bay is my
next set of target areas. I'd love to find some boxes planted by the
enthusiastic Team Aahz!
- Eclipse (hoping to make it over to the Great Mall after work sometime
soon...)
--
eclipse@tuliphead.com / barbara reece
nihil declaro.
Re: [LbNCA] Re: what?
From: Eclipse (eclipse@tuliphead.com) |
Date: 2006-05-09 16:20:16 UTC-07:00
I'm going to assume this was directed at me. So I'll respond:
On Tue, May 9, 2006 3:39 pm, gwendontoo wrote:
> If you read over
> my posts you should note that I never slandered, called names, or used
any denigrating remarks other than at one point the use of the term
"crappy" stamps was used.
I should start by saying that I did not read this discussion on AQ, and in
fact, was not aware of it. In my response to Aahz, I also did not slander
anyone or call anyone names, nor did I accuse anyone else of doing so. My
response was based _solely_ on Aahz's post to this list.
> It was a discussion on reasons to plant. It wasn't an elitist point of
view, nor does my point of view weigh any more than anyone elses. I
believe I have the right to my point of view, and see no reason not to
express it. If this crushes enthusiasm, then maybe that
> enthusiasm isn't based properly. Challenging ideas can only make good
ideas better, and great ideas stand out.
I believe _everyone_ has the right to their point of view and should
express it if they feel so moved. I don't, however, agree that if
someone's pov crushes someone else's enthusiasm that it means that the
enthusiasm wasn't "based properly": that implies "wrong", and I don't
really think the idea of a Planting Day challenge (or the spirit behind
it) is wrong.
> There should be some really good reasons to plant in an area, I
> merely thought that having a contest for the person that plants the
most letterboxes was not a very compelling reason, and that is MY POINT
of view.
Nobody said your point of view was wrong; I merely encouraged Aahz to
continue doing something started in the spirit of enthusiasm and
creativity, regardless of what others thought about it.
> While some folks think quality comes from quantity, I do not. I do not
think of letterboxing as a competition, whether it be planting a bunch
of letterboxes for a contest or something else similar. We no longer
even keep numbering our finds.
I didn't realize this was a quantity vs. quality discussion.
> I never said you can't, I merely wanted the discussion on the
> reasons to plant. If discussions on topics about letterboxing can not
be made on chatlists then where the heck do you want them
> made?
Nobody said this shouldn't be discussed here or anywhere else.
> Maybe you should go back and really read the entire discussion prior to
commenting on the discussion and if you do wish to discuss the topic
further I can be reached off list, but please refrain from using
commentary such as 'elitist', 'wet blanket','boorish' or some other
denigration. They serve no purpose other than to disrupt a good
discussion on a topic that most planters should consider.
As I said, I was unaware of the discussion on AQ but since I was
responding to Aahz's post here, and not to you there, I feel perfectly
entitled to comment here on what I read here.
I guess here you're outing yourself as (one of) the person(s) whose
viewpoint caused Aahz to cancel the event. Like you, I was merely
contributing my point of view to a chatlist, and I'll use what language I
think is appropriate to describe my point of view. If you choose to take
the words I've written as denigrations against you, I can't do anything
about that.
I certainly didn't write those comments with you, or anyone else in
particular, in mind. If you disagree with what I've said, I don't mind.
If you take umbrage against the words I've chosen, then perhaps you should
think about what's causing you to do so. Since you're obviously feeling so
defensive about it, perhaps you should consider the spirit in which your
comments were made. They may have caused someone else to feel bad enough
about their plans to not only cancel them, but publicly apologize for them
- which is really, in my mind, a shame, and not the kind of community I
would hope to see this hobby foster.
- Eclipse
--
eclipse@tuliphead.com / barbara reece
nihil declaro.
On Tue, May 9, 2006 3:39 pm, gwendontoo wrote:
> If you read over
> my posts you should note that I never slandered, called names, or used
any denigrating remarks other than at one point the use of the term
"crappy" stamps was used.
I should start by saying that I did not read this discussion on AQ, and in
fact, was not aware of it. In my response to Aahz, I also did not slander
anyone or call anyone names, nor did I accuse anyone else of doing so. My
response was based _solely_ on Aahz's post to this list.
> It was a discussion on reasons to plant. It wasn't an elitist point of
view, nor does my point of view weigh any more than anyone elses. I
believe I have the right to my point of view, and see no reason not to
express it. If this crushes enthusiasm, then maybe that
> enthusiasm isn't based properly. Challenging ideas can only make good
ideas better, and great ideas stand out.
I believe _everyone_ has the right to their point of view and should
express it if they feel so moved. I don't, however, agree that if
someone's pov crushes someone else's enthusiasm that it means that the
enthusiasm wasn't "based properly": that implies "wrong", and I don't
really think the idea of a Planting Day challenge (or the spirit behind
it) is wrong.
> There should be some really good reasons to plant in an area, I
> merely thought that having a contest for the person that plants the
most letterboxes was not a very compelling reason, and that is MY POINT
of view.
Nobody said your point of view was wrong; I merely encouraged Aahz to
continue doing something started in the spirit of enthusiasm and
creativity, regardless of what others thought about it.
> While some folks think quality comes from quantity, I do not. I do not
think of letterboxing as a competition, whether it be planting a bunch
of letterboxes for a contest or something else similar. We no longer
even keep numbering our finds.
I didn't realize this was a quantity vs. quality discussion.
> I never said you can't, I merely wanted the discussion on the
> reasons to plant. If discussions on topics about letterboxing can not
be made on chatlists then where the heck do you want them
> made?
Nobody said this shouldn't be discussed here or anywhere else.
> Maybe you should go back and really read the entire discussion prior to
commenting on the discussion and if you do wish to discuss the topic
further I can be reached off list, but please refrain from using
commentary such as 'elitist', 'wet blanket','boorish' or some other
denigration. They serve no purpose other than to disrupt a good
discussion on a topic that most planters should consider.
As I said, I was unaware of the discussion on AQ but since I was
responding to Aahz's post here, and not to you there, I feel perfectly
entitled to comment here on what I read here.
I guess here you're outing yourself as (one of) the person(s) whose
viewpoint caused Aahz to cancel the event. Like you, I was merely
contributing my point of view to a chatlist, and I'll use what language I
think is appropriate to describe my point of view. If you choose to take
the words I've written as denigrations against you, I can't do anything
about that.
I certainly didn't write those comments with you, or anyone else in
particular, in mind. If you disagree with what I've said, I don't mind.
If you take umbrage against the words I've chosen, then perhaps you should
think about what's causing you to do so. Since you're obviously feeling so
defensive about it, perhaps you should consider the spirit in which your
comments were made. They may have caused someone else to feel bad enough
about their plans to not only cancel them, but publicly apologize for them
- which is really, in my mind, a shame, and not the kind of community I
would hope to see this hobby foster.
- Eclipse
--
eclipse@tuliphead.com / barbara reece
nihil declaro.
Re: what?
From: Lisa Lazar (lazar.bauer@earthlink.net) |
Date: 2006-05-10 00:43:49 UTC
Hey Don,
I don't have time to go through all the AQ archives, but I have to
wonder why you singled out my friend Cyndie (Lock Wench). Cyndie is
by far the kindest, funniest, most creative, most generous and most
passionate letterboxer I've ever met. Her clues are brilliant, her
carving superlative, her ideas ingenious, her events unparalleled.
If you have any doubts about her value as a letterboxer, both Paul and
I will vouch for her. She's one of the best people I know, and
letterboxing is lucky to have her as a particpant.
respectfully,
Lisa
I don't have time to go through all the AQ archives, but I have to
wonder why you singled out my friend Cyndie (Lock Wench). Cyndie is
by far the kindest, funniest, most creative, most generous and most
passionate letterboxer I've ever met. Her clues are brilliant, her
carving superlative, her ideas ingenious, her events unparalleled.
If you have any doubts about her value as a letterboxer, both Paul and
I will vouch for her. She's one of the best people I know, and
letterboxing is lucky to have her as a particpant.
respectfully,
Lisa
Re: what?
From: rscarpen (letterboxing@atlasquest.com) |
Date: 2006-05-10 01:25:14 UTC
Hey people....
It's getting a bit warm in this room. Don has his opinions and he's
welcome to express them, but do keep in mind that he can be pretty
blunt. It's not personal, it's not elistist--it's his opinion and
that's that. We don't all have to agree on everything to get along.
He has concerns that enticing people with prizes to plant boxes will
end up encouraging the types of boxes he'd rather not see planted.
Those concerns could be entirely unfounded--but we don't know yet.
Perhaps they have merit--but we don't know that yet either.
I'm willing to give it the benefit of a doubt and if it generates lots
of poorly planted boxes that go missing in a few days, I might tend to
discourage prizes in the future myself. *shrug*
Nothing ventured, nothing gained. =)
I'd also like to point out--while Don has clearly expressed concerns
about the idea of prizes, I wouldn't necessarily blame him as the sole
person who doesn't like the idea. We have no idea if anyone else sent
e-mails saying they didn't like the idea or the substance of the
messages or who was writing them. Don could just be the one person
who's expressed a public opinion against prizes.
-- Ryan
It's getting a bit warm in this room. Don has his opinions and he's
welcome to express them, but do keep in mind that he can be pretty
blunt. It's not personal, it's not elistist--it's his opinion and
that's that. We don't all have to agree on everything to get along.
He has concerns that enticing people with prizes to plant boxes will
end up encouraging the types of boxes he'd rather not see planted.
Those concerns could be entirely unfounded--but we don't know yet.
Perhaps they have merit--but we don't know that yet either.
I'm willing to give it the benefit of a doubt and if it generates lots
of poorly planted boxes that go missing in a few days, I might tend to
discourage prizes in the future myself. *shrug*
Nothing ventured, nothing gained. =)
I'd also like to point out--while Don has clearly expressed concerns
about the idea of prizes, I wouldn't necessarily blame him as the sole
person who doesn't like the idea. We have no idea if anyone else sent
e-mails saying they didn't like the idea or the substance of the
messages or who was writing them. Don could just be the one person
who's expressed a public opinion against prizes.
-- Ryan
Re: what?
From: gwendontoo (foxsecurity@earthlink.net) |
Date: 2006-05-10 01:38:03 UTC
--- In LbNCA@yahoogroups.com, "rscarpen" wrote:
>
> Hey people....
>
> It's getting a bit warm in this room. Don has his opinions and he's
> welcome to express them, but do keep in mind that he can be pretty
> blunt. It's not personal, it's not elistist--it's his opinion and
> that's that. We don't all have to agree on everything to get along.
Yep.
I would like to direct folks to a line in a previous post that
seemed to be overlooked.
"Challenging ideas can only make good ideas better, and great ideas
stand out."
I probably am in a minority on this topic, though I expect there
maybe some that might agree with me, but if you do disagree that
fine. I only expect a respectful and civil discussion.
Don
>
> Hey people....
>
> It's getting a bit warm in this room. Don has his opinions and he's
> welcome to express them, but do keep in mind that he can be pretty
> blunt. It's not personal, it's not elistist--it's his opinion and
> that's that. We don't all have to agree on everything to get along.
Yep.
I would like to direct folks to a line in a previous post that
seemed to be overlooked.
"Challenging ideas can only make good ideas better, and great ideas
stand out."
I probably am in a minority on this topic, though I expect there
maybe some that might agree with me, but if you do disagree that
fine. I only expect a respectful and civil discussion.
Don
Re: [LbNCA] Re: what?
From: Kel Gennert (arttrekker@tech21.com) |
Date: 2006-05-09 20:53:09 UTC-07:00
Hey people....
It's getting a bit warm in this room.Thanks for weighing in, Ryan. Could we all just call a truce here? I miss the good old days of a mere few months ago when it seemed there was more observance of etiquette and a hesitation to sling a bunch of accusations and strong words.
I would like to post a note to the newbies, however. I welcome you and am happy that you are enthusiastic about this fun hobby. I do think that when starting any new venture, it's a good idea to do a LOT of observing before jumping in and wanting to change the world. Or even make strong comments on it. I don't particularly care for the use of the term "elitist"; these are people, you know, and I haven't met one yet that wasn't damn nice. Reading some of these posts, and personally knowing the person referred to and how he or she may have been misinterpreted just makes me squirm. It really IS a good idea to check the tutorials. I ddn't find the "advice on posting" till several months in, and when I finally read it, I felt a little sheepish. While there may be no rules, there is strong etiquette AND protocol, and I, for one, like it that way. This is a forum of many varying personalities, backgrounds, affiliations, etc., and you don't want to have to pull out your bag of apologies when you finally make it to a gathering and meet these folks in person.
It's a great hobby, there are many great ideas waiting to be explored, could we all at least TRY to play nice? I, for one, am grateful to all planters, won't hesitate to send praise or advice directly to them, and wish all you boxers Happy Trails (to quote a famous turtle).
artTrekker
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It's getting a bit warm in this room.Thanks for weighing in, Ryan. Could we all just call a truce here? I miss the good old days of a mere few months ago when it seemed there was more observance of etiquette and a hesitation to sling a bunch of accusations and strong words.
I would like to post a note to the newbies, however. I welcome you and am happy that you are enthusiastic about this fun hobby. I do think that when starting any new venture, it's a good idea to do a LOT of observing before jumping in and wanting to change the world. Or even make strong comments on it. I don't particularly care for the use of the term "elitist"; these are people, you know, and I haven't met one yet that wasn't damn nice. Reading some of these posts, and personally knowing the person referred to and how he or she may have been misinterpreted just makes me squirm. It really IS a good idea to check the tutorials. I ddn't find the "advice on posting" till several months in, and when I finally read it, I felt a little sheepish. While there may be no rules, there is strong etiquette AND protocol, and I, for one, like it that way. This is a forum of many varying personalities, backgrounds, affiliations, etc., and you don't want to have to pull out your bag of apologies when you finally make it to a gathering and meet these folks in person.
It's a great hobby, there are many great ideas waiting to be explored, could we all at least TRY to play nice? I, for one, am grateful to all planters, won't hesitate to send praise or advice directly to them, and wish all you boxers Happy Trails (to quote a famous turtle).
artTrekker
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]